ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

Amp34 said:
TBH I think Assad is the lesser of the evils yes. Just look at Iraq and Libya where the "rebels" won and the state security apparatus were intentionally destroyed. It's not an ideal solution but it is likely to make a more secure and peaceful country for at least the short to medium term.

I don't condone his actions, but neither do I condone those on the other side.

As I said years ago (and you'll find quotes if you want about this), I think the rebels and west should have allowed Assad and his government to abdicate, or at the very least enter legitimate dialogue. Instead we insisted Assad must fall and "answer for his crimes" (execution) and the rebels refused to enter peace talks that involved Assad not being executed/removed from power - in part probably because they thought the west would enter the fight and we would end up with a situation like Libya and Iraq, where both governments were toppled by the west and leaders executed.

Obviously that option has now passed, but I'm not going to condone the meatheadedness of both sides during a period that could have given us legitimate pause to this war.

As for the real world - interesting coming from someone that doesn't know what the solution is, just that Assad must go... I'd also be interested to know what CTs you think I'm backing here?
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I respect your views Amp, I find your posts come across as considered, I'll take the time to read them properly rather than instantly dismiss them based on your username. The CT comment was a generalisation, perhaps not so much aimed at yourself.

As for a solution though, I defy you come up with a reasonable one! I maybe take some umbrage to your implication that I don't understand the real world just because I don't have a solution. This is because I see the solution quite hopeless, especially as it seems the majority of people seem to have the mindset of regression is the key. Even you state short - medium term goals when really that isn't good enough it that is going to be the world's view. It should be long term, progress. Iron fist rulers are not the answer. Most, if not all, nations have endured a period of anarchy and then reform. Whatever the overall outcome, the silly "book vs book" interpretation war we currently have is not it!
 
GW2 - the USA didn't imagine blowing up the country and being left to pick up the pieces - they assumed *someone* would step up and take over , but being pro west.

sadly that someone ended up being `some people` not 1 and an on going ideology based civil war which some say started in 2003
 
Harlequin said:
GW2 - the USA didn't imagine blowing up the country and being left to pick up the pieces - they assumed *someone* would step up and take over , but being pro west.

sadly that someone ended up being `some people` not 1 and an on going ideology based civil war which some say started in 2003
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But you of all people know the ideology based war that exists throughout the entire region has existed for centuries. The super power was Shia Persia, now it's Sunni Saudi.
 
Harlequin said:
Yes of course - which is why I have no damn clue WHY the west wants to meddle


oh wait

OIL.
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:confused:

You're going to try and apply the moral high ground when living in your comfortable oil driven western life style? Are you going to give all of that up tomorrow for a resolution?

I find your perspective to be hypocritical
 
RoboCod said:
:confused:

You're going to try and apply the moral high ground when living in your comfortable oil driven western life style? Are you going to give all of that up tomorrow for a resolution?

I find your perspective to be hypocritical
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happily get rid of an oil based society actually , but since a primary underlying issue is ideology, I genuinely cannot see how a real peace between the various `factions` of islam can be truly achieved - short of Muhammed returning
 
for the nth time - I have said it twice now - go and re read above! holy **** - do you actually NOT understand I have told you already? seriously?
 
Harlequin said:
for the nth time - I have said it twice now - go and re read above! holy **** - do you actually NOT understand I have told you already? seriously?
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Yup...the above just says who you don't support. Not who you do.

So who do you support? Hmm? :confused:
 
Amp34 said:
TBH I think Assad is the lesser of the evils yes. Just look at Iraq and Libya where the "rebels" won and the state security apparatus were intentionally destroyed. It's not an ideal solution but it is likely to make a more secure and peaceful country for at least the short to medium term.
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I think this was a plausible position two years ago; now, I think that Syria is doomed to a long and bloody civil war and propping up Assad is neither a credible nor desirable outcome. Unfortunately there are no reasonable alternatives, either. Which is why I think that we should simply stay out of Syria altogether until we have a plan that makes sense.

As I said years ago (and you'll find quotes if you want about this), I think the rebels and west should have allowed Assad and his government to abdicate, or at the very least enter legitimate dialogue.
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I have heard that Assad offered the US a deal, via the Russians, that would have involved him standing down and going into exile and the regime continuing with some accommodations and assurances three years ago. The US apparently turned this deal down because, at the time, they believed they could easily push Assad out (and had the UK joined a US-led force at that time this would probably have happened for better or worse). This was, I think, the key mistake in foreign involvement. A negotiated stand down of this type would have been the best possible outcome for the civil war, but the window of opportunity is long since passed.

I thought Hillary Benn's speech in the second commons vote on military action in Syria (this time backing the opposite side to the first vote) was the clearest example of the dire thinking over Syria. They're mean! We must do something! In contrast to the battle against ISIS in Iraq where we have clear allies (the Iraqi government), clear targets (ISIS), and a clear end aim (the restoration of Iraqi territorial sovereignty); any involvement in Syria is directionless rubbish since we have none of these things. We're effectively backing Assad by proxy whilst condemning Russia for backing him in fact, and deriding him and his regime in public.
 
RoboCod said:
:confused:

You're going to try and apply the moral high ground when living in your comfortable oil driven western life style? Are you going to give all of that up tomorrow for a resolution?

I find your perspective to be hypocritical
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stop trying to justify invading other peoples countries and killing innocents just to steal resources, i find your perspective evil!

how would you feel if someone bombed the crap out of your country just to steal resources?

who are you to talk about morals.

people like you have no concept of morality.

your worse than a burglar.
 
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jagga1968 said:
stop trying to justify invading other peoples countries and killing innocents just to steal resources, i find your perspective evil!

who are you to talk about morals.

people like you have no concept of morality.

your worse than a burglar.
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Until we have a society that is sustainable by other means that is the way it is, it's the way of the world and for a long time has been. I'm just accepting of the world I'm born into, I'm not foolish enough to belive little old me can do diddly squat to change that.
 
only scum like to rob their neighbours to feed their habits.

and those who justify murder for the same reasons are far worse.

like i said earlier you have no morals, bet your the type of person who would pick his friends pocket and then boast about it.

karmas a bitch hope it bites you on the ass.

no doubt you will get your comeuppance sooner or later.
 
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