ISIL, ISIS, Daesh discussion thread.

RoboCod said:
Who do you support? (apart from Assad, clearly).
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we`ve been through this about 50 pages back - I don't support any of the idiots whilst they rule there lives (and everyone elses) from a book.

Assad was and likely will be the amongst the most `open` leader of a muslim country - he accepts , far more than Saudi arabia, other religions , the great church of anitoch for example ; and until 2011 , at least 10% of the population was Christian,

By constitution they have a freedom of religion
 
Washout said:
Because he's ordered the firing on/bombing that's killed 1000's of his own people.
Because half the country's population have been displaced.
Because over 250k people have been killed since he violently started putting down protests demanding he step down, presiding over a civil war that escalated and spiralled out of control allowing jihadis to run rampant and take huge swathes of territory and spill over into Iraq.
Because the 'elections' he won are a sham. What was it? 88% of the vote. That's pretty good. He's a long way of North Korea's 99.9% but he's getting there.

All because he wouldn't stand aside and cede control back to the people after daddy took it in a bloody coup.

He's a stand up guy.
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And none of that is also equally shared by the rebels that are using weapons to fight against the Syrian government?

You really think a democratic government would have been formed by the rebels if Assad had just stepped aside? Ironically there was no option for him to step aside when the it started to get bad, because the rebels were insisting he be tried for "crimes" - basically he could stay in power or be executed... which would you choose?

As with all civil wars neither side is clear of guilt, there are a myriad of issues on both sides and things could well have been cleared up if both sides had just sat down at the beginning and negotiated. Unfortunately when one side wants to keep a grip on power and he other side wants to execute that person the middle ground gets lost...

Assad is and always was the lesser of two evils unfortunately. The protesters, backed almost certainly by the US security services (who had a fair hand in the Arab spring*) thought they could do what people did in Tunisia. They couldn't - and instead of backing down before it was too late they kept pushing, causing a civil war in the process.

While it's a Civil war it always was and still is a proxy war between the west and Russia and Saudi and Iran. If Assad was closer to the US/west prior to the Arab spring it's unlikely the west would have helped instigate the protests and we wouldn't be backing the rebels. It's little different to do many of the African wars since the 50s.

RoboCod said:
Citation needed and er yes, your very language suggests you are in favour of Assad slapping down those who oppose him. It's only a tiny amount though right, so it doesn't matter does it? Needs to do what he needs to do, doesn't he?
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So what is your solution? Hand Syria over to the rebels? That worked well in Libya didn't it.

*to clarify that point, I'm not saying they caused the Arab spring, rather provided assistance, training and communications skills (Tor as an example) to help those rising up.
 
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Amp34 said:
So what is your solution? Hand Syria over to the rebels? That worked well in Libya didn't it.
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I've already stated I don't see a solution. What's yours? Is it, have Assad carry on executing thousands of his own? Another sympathiser is it?

And I'm the one being asked if I'm having a breakdown :D do any of you people live in the real world, outside of this forum?

All I read are CTs, nonsense and a mind set that is easy to bleat sat at the monitor of your uber gaming rigs.
 
RoboCod said:
I want to be in the circle :(
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trust.jpg
 
Amp34 said:
And none of that is also equally shared by the rebels that are using weapons to fight against the Syrian government?

You really think a democratic government would have been formed by the rebels if Assad had just stepped aside? Ironically there was no option for him to step aside when the it started to get bad, because the rebels were insisting he be tried for "crimes" - basically he could stay in power or be executed... which would you choose?

As with all civil wars neither side is clear of guilt, there are a myriad of issues on both sides and things could well have been cleared up if both sides had just sat down at the beginning and negotiated. Unfortunately when one side wants to keep a grip on power and he other side wants to execute that person the middle ground gets lost...

Assad is and always was the lesser of two evils unfortunately. The protesters, backed almost certainly by the US security services (who had a fair hand in the Arab spring) thought they could do what people did in Tunisia. They couldn't - and instead of backing down before it was too late they kept pushing, causing a civil war in the process.

While it's a Civil war it always was and still is a proxy war between the west and Russia and Saudi and Iran. If Assad was closer to the US/west prior to the Arab spring it's unlikely the west would have helped instigate the protests and we wouldn't be backing the rebels. It's little different to do many of the African wars since the 50s.



So what is your solution? Hand Syria over to the rebels? That worked well in Libya didn't it.
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As you say, a civil war is messy. They always are. But he could quite easily have left the country. It wasn't a binary choice.
It's also getting to be a bit of a tired cliché blaming all the ills of the world on the US and the CIA. They couldn't even organise a break in to an iphone so you give them too much credit. Libya for instance, they had ZERO interest in. That was a British/French enterprise that they only (and reluctantly) came in on at the end.
If there wasn't a groundswell of support for getting him out the movement would have died on it's feet at the beginning. People talking about the elections being fair and a true representation of the situation on the ground... well, that's such an absurd notion it's not worth arguing against.

Of course the blood thirsty Jihadis cannot be absolved, not for one second saying they should but as soon as he ordered the army to fire on his own people he kicked off the circle of violence that got the country to where it is now.
Some on here, along with the Russians might be comfortable staying in bed with the man that allowed his country and people to rip itself apart but I'm not! Neither are most democratic nations around the world.
 
RoboCod said:
I've already stated I don't see a solution. What's yours? Is it, have Assad carry on executing thousands of his own? Another sympathiser is it?

And I'm the one being asked if I'm having a breakdown :D do any of you people live in the real world, outside of this forum?

All I read are CTs, nonsense and a mind set that is easy to bleat sat at the monitor of your uber gaming rigs.
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TBH I think Assad is the lesser of the evils yes. Just look at Iraq and Libya where the "rebels" won and the state security apparatus were intentionally destroyed. It's not an ideal solution but it is likely to make a more secure and peaceful country for at least the short to medium term.

I don't condone his actions, but neither do I condone those on the other side.

As I said years ago (and you'll find quotes if you want about this), I think the rebels and west should have allowed Assad and his government to abdicate, or at the very least enter legitimate dialogue. Instead we insisted Assad must fall and "answer for his crimes" (execution) and the rebels refused to enter peace talks that involved Assad not being executed/removed from power - in part probably because they thought the west would enter the fight and we would end up with a situation like Libya and Iraq, where both governments were toppled by the west and leaders executed.

Obviously that option has now passed, but I'm not going to condone the meatheadedness of both sides during a period that could have given us legitimate pause to this war.

As for the real world - interesting coming from someone that doesn't know what the solution is, just that Assad must go... I'd also be interested to know what CTs you think I'm backing here?
 
Washout said:
As you say, a civil war is messy. They always are. But he could quite easily have left the country.
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Why the hell would he do that? O.o

At no point in this entire thing (baring when it looked like the west was going to intervene) was it even remotely likely the rebels were going to win. Hell in 4 years they only managed to take 10-20% of Aleppo and the media considers that their "stronghold".

Why should he leave when the vast majority of Syrians are in favour of him and his party?

Do you want Syria to be overrun by extremists who want to turn it into an Islamic country, install sharia law, revoke women's rights and persecute the Christians/Jews?


Amp34 said:
TBH I think Assad is the lesser of the evils yes.

/snip

I don't condone his actions, but neither do I condone those on the other side.
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Well said.
 
Dis86 said:
Harlequin, who do you support, apart from Assad?
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Harlequin said:
we`ve been through this about 50 pages back - I don't support any of the idiots whilst they rule there lives (and everyone elses) from a book.

Assad was and likely will be the amongst the most `open` leader of a muslim country - he accepts , far more than Saudi arabia, other religions , the great church of anitoch for example ; and until 2011 , at least 10% of the population was Christian,

By constitution they have a freedom of religion
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see above
 
Sliver said:
Are you saying he is a good man then? Clearly he is not. He is a murderer of innocents, a brutal dictator, a fascist totalitarian leader who does not care for his citizens. The fact that you even try to defend him says a lot about your character. Disgusting to be honest.




Take your roll eyes and hide them where the sun don't shine. When the allies fought Germany in WW2 we were fighting fascism. Syria today is no different. It's not a democratic state it is a brutal dictatorship and anyone who tries to defend it is by definition abhorrent.
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its posts like this which instill faith in humanity

thanks man!
 
Can someone who disagrees with Assad's position, please explain their position on Libya?

As our solution would have been very similar if we went in, and what about not taking these nasty men to the Hague instead of hanging them?
 
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