Italian Grand Prix 2010, Monza Circuit - Race 14/19

[JUMPURS]

Why not. One driver has been able to take his stop and go penalty after the race had finished.

Are you talking about Schumacher doing it and the rules subsequently being changed?

I don't know what is confusing about McLaren pitting? They had to pit at some point, they where not pulling away from Alonso, and apparently Button liked the hard tyres anyway.

 

[JRS]

Regarding the Ferrari strategy at this race - Ferrari hear on the radio feed that McLaren are calling Button in for a stop, so know that all Alonso has to do is one ultra fast lap when Button pits to come out in the lead after Alonso stops for tyres. Surely this is a good advert for using coded instructions rather than coming out and saying what you're about to do in plain English? I mean, it can't be completely beyond the wit of Formula One teams to use some kind of code, surely? Make, say, 'code blue' mean 'come in next time around' and 'code red' mean 'push like crazy'. And vary the colours each race weekend so no-one is able to decipher it.

Or is that crazy talk?

 

[Dutch Guy]

Or is that crazy talk?

Even if they had used a coded message Ferrari would have known about it by looking at the activity in the pitbox.

 

[FrankJH]

Button - race restart schenaingans in China or Malaysia (cant remember which one). Backing the pack up and causing a collision between cars at the back.

Maybe you should study ALL the incidents you question - because at the very least this was NOTHING to do with Button, as it can clearly be seen that he is moving at a constant speed - and therefore doing nothing wrong at all, it is those behind him that actually cause the bunching up (because of the preceeding corner) and they should have been more in tune with how those ahead of them were moving before accelerating out of said corner

Just because a commentator says something initially (as Brundle did duuring the above) when it was actually happening, he ALSO stated while watching the replay - during the race, not in the forum after - he was mistaken as JB didnt do anything wrong.

Therefore this isnt anything more than you wanting to axegrind imo

 

[sunama]

Or is that crazy talk?

I'm not sure about Button, as he might be able to make coded messages work, but I know that if it were Hamilton, he would COMPLETELY AND SPECTACULARLY balls that up.

Another factor to think about is that sometimes a driver is completely focused on driving fast and in these situations, deciphering coded messages (especially those which change every race), may not be easy.

I can see your point JRS...I think colour codes could be used, but the drivers will need to be drilled into using the colour coding instinctively, without having to think about what it actually means.

I don't think a constantly changing system of colour codes will work though, as drivers (and pit crew), may get confused.

 

[Flibster]

Colours have been used for messages before. A very long time ago - The former Mercedes Grand Prix team manager Alfred Neubauer used coloured flags to communicate with drivers.

 

[dannyjo22]

Regarding the Ferrari strategy at this race - Ferrari hear on the radio feed that McLaren are calling Button in for a stop, so know that all Alonso has to do is one ultra fast lap when Button pits to come out in the lead after Alonso stops for tyres. Surely this is a good advert for using coded instructions rather than coming out and saying what you're about to do in plain English? I mean, it can't be completely beyond the wit of Formula One teams to use some kind of code, surely? Make, say, 'code blue' mean 'come in next time around' and 'code red' mean 'push like crazy'. And vary the colours each race weekend so no-one is able to decipher it.

Or is that crazy talk?

Why would ferrari hear it? I thought they had an option what to broadcast and listening in to others radio conversations was supposed to be banned?

 

[sunama]

... listening in to others radio conversations was supposed to be banned?

Is it?

And even if it is...do you really think that a ban will stop other teams from listening in to other teams' conversations on the radio? At the very least they can listen to radio comms from the TV live feed.

 

[arknor]

Is it?

And even if it is...do you really think that a ban will stop other teams from listening in to other teams' conversations on the radio? At the very least they can listen to radio comms from the TV live feed.

tv live feed is only small sound bytes we dont get to hear the majority of chatter

 

[MarcLister]

Ferrari had a quicker pitstop by almost a second, which is why he lost the lead, so Mclaren need to work on that.

0.8 seconds faster wasn't it? Apparently Alonso's in lap was 0.575 seconds faster than Button's.

The stop on its own, good as it was, was not quite enough to get him ahead. He also produced a fabulous in-lap - 0.575secs faster than Button's.

Question: Would Button have been allowed to pit in the last lap, and cross the start/finish in the pits?

Schumacher did it. Ross Brawn realised the pit lane counted as part of the track and the start/finish line crossed the pit lane as well as the track.

 

[dannyjo22]

Is it?

And even if it is...do you really think that a ban will stop other teams from listening in to other teams' conversations on the radio? At the very least they can listen to radio comms from the TV live feed.

As Arknor said the bits we hear on tv are the bits they have allowed to be broadcast. The TV companies don't hear it if they push the override button.

I think the teams run some pretty good gear to stop teams listening in. Part of the data passed to Mclaren from Ferrari in the scandal was when Ferrari would be stopping. This is pretty critical information and if they could just listen in they wouldn't have needed the info.

 

[FrankJH]

McLaren lost it in the pits - it doesnt really matter that much about the respective in and out laps when the new tyres take 0.8s longer to get on the McLaren than the Ferrari , and you lose the race to the first corner by about 2 - 3/10ths if not less

 

[FrankJH]

So he could have pitted on the penultimate lap, meaning Alonso wouldn't have been able to have an extra lap before he pitted?

Exactly (as Vettel did)

however the new tyres were faster , apart from the 1st lap out of hte pits

Also even if Alonso had gone in first - he would have been in free air during the intervening laps, and so theoretically going faster anyway - so would have leapfrogged JB as he came out to complete the last lap

 

[Cavallino]

Maybe you should study ALL the incidents you question - because at the very least this was NOTHING to do with Button, as it can clearly be seen that he is moving at a constant speed - and therefore doing nothing wrong at all, it is those behind him that actually cause the bunching up (because of the preceeding corner) and they should have been more in tune with how those ahead of them were moving before accelerating out of said corner

Just because a commentator says something initially (as Brundle did duuring the above) when it was actually happening, he ALSO stated while watching the replay - during the race, not in the forum after - he was mistaken as JB didnt do anything wrong.

Therefore this isnt anything more than you wanting to axegrind imo

Well... you seem to be trying to be doing a good job of trying to prove me wrong bud


And thats the sad thing, if you read my previous messages, you will see that I dont give a flying fig whether Button should be penalised or not but rather the FIA recognising the move as potentially illegal (or lack therof). Whether you or I think its illegal is moot, because the FIA on more than once has shown inconsistencies with investigating and dealing with rule infarctions.

E.g. Spa 2008, everyone was so convinced (including me) that Hamilton was penalised unfairly. Again the FIA has proven and shown that it does not have the ability to judge when a move or some event that has taken place, as being legal or illegal.

The Button incident is one of many and I may well agree with you that it can be shelved under "not a problem" if I could just see some more replays as the only thing I resorted to was Sky HD+ and replays back many months ago. But the fact remains that there are other incidents during this season thusfar which Mclaren have gotten off lightly with.

Oh and next time you dont have to be so condescending by applying labels such as "axegrinding" bud. I'm sure we can make our points across amicably with no need to resort to labels, no matter how insignificant you may think the label maybe.

 

[Cavallino]

Exactly (as Vettel did)

however the new tyres were faster , apart from the 1st lap out of hte pits

Also even if Alonso had gone in first - he would have been in free air during the intervening laps, and so theoretically going faster anyway - so would have leapfrogged JB as he came out to complete the last lap

Whitmarsh on the "what if" scenarios regarding pit stops.

"We were obviously looking for a gap," said the McLaren team boss. "We could see that as the cars behind cascaded in and onto the prime, the prime was quicker. And, at that point, you want to get onto the quicker tyre as quickly as possible.

"With Ferrari behind us there was only three ways it was going to go. We either were going to get in in front of them, and had they not come in that lap we would have been able to beat them.

"It would have been nice for them to have come in at the same time as us, but that would have been a foolish thing for them to do and they didn't unfortunately.

"Or, if we had stayed out and they had come in first, then they would have beaten us by more. So we made the right call

So Mclaren believe that had Ferrari come in first they wouldve (Ferrari) ended up infront a bit more easily.

And also, Ferrari had a quicker pit stop so even if they had pitted on the same lap... chances are Alonso wouldve made it out of the pits first.

"We were a few tenths slower in the stop and I think Fernando was quicker. So it was two or three metres the wrong side when we came out."

 

[hiroofheroes]

There are a lot of things that could have thrown it Buttons way.

Most notably if he didn't suffer the damage at the start he may have been able to pull away and make his strategy work, rather than matching Alonso's speed but with track position.

Also, had Hamilton not crashed out Alonso would have has to watch his rear - but with Massa behind him Alonso could concentrate on just pressuring Button and managing his tyres.

But at the end of the day, the Ferrari was the faster car in the race, they had a better strategy, and got a better pit stop - so they just shaded McLaren for the win - but both Button and Alonso had great drives worthy of world champions.

 

[MarcLister]

both Button and Alonso had great drives worthy of world champions.

Agreed. Button's drive was pretty impressive considering he had the Ferrari of Alonso right behind him. I'm sure he knew that any mistake meant Alonso would get the lead. He was concentrating so hard the McLaren pit wall crew weren't sure if the radio was working.

And he showed a high level of intelligence, I think, to ask his team why they did what they did when they did pitting him.

 

[sunama]

I don't really think that driving well, in a single GP gives you the right to say that "you are worthy of the championship".

At the end of the day Hamilton has been far more consistent and in the early part of the season seemed intent on breaking the overtaking record. Hamilton has shown that in an inferior car he can beat other drivers.

The driver of the season, so far, for me, is definitely Hamilton.

Button has done extremely well, as he is not getting obliterated by his team-leader. But Hamilton edges it for me.

I've been very critical of Alonso this year, namely because he is widely regarded as the daddy of F1, yet, he has been making silly little errors (example: the Spa debacle) which are costing him points. All these lost points are adding up. He is in 3rd place and I am confident he will finish up as the top point scorer in the 2nd half of the season. If he can do this, then maybe he may be worthy for the championship, but at this point, based on what we have seen this year, he is definitely not worthy of the championship or his tag of being the best driver in F1.

 

[Cavallino]

I don't really think that driving well, in a single GP gives you the right to say that "you are worthy of the championship".

At the end of the day Hamilton has been far more consistent and in the early part of the season seemed intent on breaking the overtaking record. Hamilton has shown that in an inferior car he can beat other drivers.

The driver of the season, so far, for me, is definitely Hamilton.

Button has done extremely well, as he is not getting obliterated by his team-leader. But Hamilton edges it for me.

I've been very critical of Alonso this year, namely because he is widely regarded as the daddy of F1, yet, he has been making silly little errors (example: the Spa debacle) which are costing him points. All these lost points are adding up. He is in 3rd place and I am confident he will finish up as the top point scorer in the 2nd half of the season. If he can do this, then maybe he may be worthy for the championship, but at this point, based on what we have seen this year, he is definitely not worthy of the championship or his tag of being the best driver in F1.

Spon on again s.

 

[[TW]Taggart]

I disagree. The facts suggest otherwise (last race of the seasons)

In 2007 he messed up on lap 1 having been overtaken by Alonso and then engaging the pit limiter... he could have so easily won that season.

Incorrect.. it was a forced Neutral. its a failsafe for the gearbox. not to do with driver control.

Is the rule 8 changes? or if you use MORE than 8 engines? Because I think Alonso still has other of his allocated 8 engines...

8 engines. you can re use them but mileage becomes an issue..