Soldato
i've just realised, we are having our trousers pulled down!
- Thread starter cm1179
- Start date
You don't even have an argument. Go read a book, a very very very low level one, about economics and come back when you can formulate an argument.
Associate
No, the conservatives were close to paying off the national debt. Think if they'd of gotten in for another term, the debt would be paid off within a couple of years of them taking office again.
i don't need a degree in economics to know when i'm getting shafted.
Man of Honour
Who are?
It's b)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/energy/oilandgas/7802978/BP-its-10-biggest-shareholders.html
7 out of the 10 largest shareholders in BP are investment companies.
Soldato
Last edited:
Associate
- Joined
- 2 Jan 2010
- Posts
- 2,307
I guess you might of missed this If we finally realised that we are no longer the international powerhouse we used to be, we wouldn't need to go around starting pointless foreign wars, and we certainly wouldn't need to spend half as much as what we do on our Armed Forces
Raising VAT, I can live with that, but when the government thinks that fighting AMERICA'S WAR is more important than the education of our youth, then truly we are screwed.
an excellent point. wait for an economist expert to step in and blow it to pieces with 'facts' from a pile of paper.
But you're not being shafted! This is like hitting my head against a brick wall. We have a massive deficit, it NEEDS to be cut. We need to implement measures to do this. This is what we are doing. If we don't, I guarantee you'll feel you're getting even more shafted.
and why do we have a massive deficit?
Simply? Because of mismanagement of funds and reckless overspending without having a contingency. This obviously includes the recession and the ridiculous lowering of VAT.
and who's fault was that?
The public for only voting for people who said "We'll give you more free stuff and take less" for over a decade?
Regulatory bodies and the culture of excessive debt.
There's some shortsighted people in this thread.
First of all, the government only taxes in order to meet what it spends. Eventually the books have to balance. Total tax = total spend.
Thus the tax HAS to be paid. It then becomes not a question of "There's too much tax" it instead turns into the reality behind most of the statements - I shouldn't be paying it, someone else should be paying it instead.
The other end of the stick is spending. The only other way to reduce tax is for the government to spend less.
So with this in mind... when you see the Labour party whining on about the VAT rise (which they 100% would have done) you see a bunch of two faced scumbags who have problems but no answers. If tax is not raised on VAT (and bear in mind it brings in a HUGE amount of revenue) then it'd have to go on National Insurance (which is really just Income Tax) or Income Tax itself, or petrol duty, or fags or booze or some other weirdness.
When you see students saying they don't want to pay tuition fees what they are saying is literally "Everybody should pay for the education I benefit from, not just me."
When you see neanderthal union leaders whining on about cuts - what they are meaning is the government should not cut spending, the government should instead raise taxes.
So there are two basic arguments.
1) Reduce spending vs Raise overall tax
2) Tax this vs Tax that
Personally, I despise VAT. It's a horrible tax. It only exists because governments/public/media can't stomach income tax rises.
I despise what NI has become. It used to be to provide for specific pseudo insurance provided by the state - certain parts of the welfare state. But it's now become just the same as income tax, except people seem to notice it less.
I love income tax. It's the way to tax people. Income tax should be way higher (if you've followed what I've said so far then you know this also means other taxes would be lower as a result)
Probably before Thatcher's 79 government, but really coming to the forefront during her government was stealth taxes. Taxes which are designed not to be so easily noticed as income tax. Blair and Brown's government fell in love with stealth taxes. They lowered income tax but vastly increased the tax burden we pay.
We waste a whole lot of administration on bad taxes - and on benefits to make up for them.
A borderline poor person pays VAT, pays NI, pays income tax - plus assorted other taxes. We then make it better for them with tax credits. Are we idiots? Yes. It'd be cheaper just to charge income tax only, and to change the bandings. Save us a fortune.
Finally there was one more utter nonsense spoken in the thread from people with the economic nous of a toddler.
Retailers will hide price increases in the VAT increase. What a naive schoolboy socialist comment. Retailers are in deadly competition with each other. They balance the prices they charge against the money they make. They need to get it right. They don't want to do price increases, and they don't often do them. They tend to hold back against price increases then do several at once. The reason why these supposed 7/8% price increases are coming is simply because the retailers feel they have to rebalance things. Goods from China are becoming more expensive, and they make most of what we consume. It's not just VAT.
The idea that retailers are evil and forcing us to pay whatever price they charge for something is lunacy.
First of all, the government only taxes in order to meet what it spends. Eventually the books have to balance. Total tax = total spend.
Thus the tax HAS to be paid. It then becomes not a question of "There's too much tax" it instead turns into the reality behind most of the statements - I shouldn't be paying it, someone else should be paying it instead.
The other end of the stick is spending. The only other way to reduce tax is for the government to spend less.
So with this in mind... when you see the Labour party whining on about the VAT rise (which they 100% would have done) you see a bunch of two faced scumbags who have problems but no answers. If tax is not raised on VAT (and bear in mind it brings in a HUGE amount of revenue) then it'd have to go on National Insurance (which is really just Income Tax) or Income Tax itself, or petrol duty, or fags or booze or some other weirdness.
When you see students saying they don't want to pay tuition fees what they are saying is literally "Everybody should pay for the education I benefit from, not just me."
When you see neanderthal union leaders whining on about cuts - what they are meaning is the government should not cut spending, the government should instead raise taxes.
So there are two basic arguments.
1) Reduce spending vs Raise overall tax
2) Tax this vs Tax that
Personally, I despise VAT. It's a horrible tax. It only exists because governments/public/media can't stomach income tax rises.
I despise what NI has become. It used to be to provide for specific pseudo insurance provided by the state - certain parts of the welfare state. But it's now become just the same as income tax, except people seem to notice it less.
I love income tax. It's the way to tax people. Income tax should be way higher (if you've followed what I've said so far then you know this also means other taxes would be lower as a result)
Probably before Thatcher's 79 government, but really coming to the forefront during her government was stealth taxes. Taxes which are designed not to be so easily noticed as income tax. Blair and Brown's government fell in love with stealth taxes. They lowered income tax but vastly increased the tax burden we pay.
We waste a whole lot of administration on bad taxes - and on benefits to make up for them.
A borderline poor person pays VAT, pays NI, pays income tax - plus assorted other taxes. We then make it better for them with tax credits. Are we idiots? Yes. It'd be cheaper just to charge income tax only, and to change the bandings. Save us a fortune.
Finally there was one more utter nonsense spoken in the thread from people with the economic nous of a toddler.
Retailers will hide price increases in the VAT increase. What a naive schoolboy socialist comment. Retailers are in deadly competition with each other. They balance the prices they charge against the money they make. They need to get it right. They don't want to do price increases, and they don't often do them. They tend to hold back against price increases then do several at once. The reason why these supposed 7/8% price increases are coming is simply because the retailers feel they have to rebalance things. Goods from China are becoming more expensive, and they make most of what we consume. It's not just VAT.
The idea that retailers are evil and forcing us to pay whatever price they charge for something is lunacy.
well, i didn't vote labour in, in 1997, i wasn't old enough to vote. it can't possibly be my fault. it can't be the publics fault, who's fault is it?
Man of Honour
If only the public were so gulable.
Soldato
I like the 20% VAT rate, it makes my tax exam questions so much easier.