Japanese Grand Prix 2011, Suzuka Circuit - Race 15/19

Mr Men · 12 Oct 2011 at 09:34

I was not trying to troll anyone so I apologise if that's the impression given, point taken

As for my comment pre-race I support Ferrari so off course I wanted them to pass Lewis and wanted Lewis not to ruin another race for Massa as it happened

As for other comments, I never seen the Webber and Schumacher incident (went for a pee when SC was out) but from what I read Webber hit MS losing part of his own wing, so to me he was punished anyway, while Lewis hit Massa costing Massa the damage to his car so that is a bit different to me.

There is as much Massa bashing on this thread and the last race thread as there is for Lewis but I guess Lewis is more supported here so anything bad about Lewis seems to cause uproar.

As for Skeeter well I find it strange that he does not want anything bad about Lewis, yet is perfectly happy to put down anyone supporting MS, each to their own I can appreciate others opinions and on any F1 thread there is never going to be mass agreement, who is the best driver is a debate that will never be settled as we all have our favourites. I shall try not speak about Lewis no more as it does seem to raise the hackles of some members and I really do not want to be considered the troll

NathanE said:
I think it's been clear for ages that Mr Men is just our resident F1 thread troll. Every forum has one

Something I have noticed on the other F1 forums is that even the Hamilton haters/trolls have started admitting that, even they, want the old Lewis back. It's their dirty little secret. It's quite funny and sad at the same time

See this is why you can't speak about Lewis, yet others can slate Massa, Alonso, MS etc etc, pretty closed minded some fans here really, every forum has the fanboi

NathanE · 12 Oct 2011 at 09:48

I think the Massa slating is fair game really. He deserves it, and there is nothing more to analyse.

Even the Hamilton slating is fair game to an extent but plenty of people are just urging caution as ultimately he is a WDC and he is important to the sport. That's why people are spending time analysing his mistakes to see what is going wrong and when he is going to snap out of it.

Alonso and MS... I've not really seen much slating this season for them. Alonso has had a quiet year. He seems to enjoy being out of the spotlight.

Skeeter · 12 Oct 2011 at 09:52

Massa is being slated for his off track moans and rants, in the exact same way Hamilton was for his.

Mr Men · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:12

And that is fine, as long as nobody mentions Lewis, I am getting with the picture here now

So to sum up its cool to slate anyone but Lewis and all will be fine

Skeeter · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:17

Mr Men said:
And that is fine, as long as nobody mentions Lewis, I am getting with the picture here now So to sum up its cool to slate anyone but Lewis and all will be fine

And your trying to convince us you aren't a troll :confused:

Mr Men · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:20

Skeeter said:
And your trying to convince us you aren't a troll

You can think what you want, I think you are the troll, as you can't discuss Lewis without brining others into it, I really don't care what you think

I can have my opinion as much as you.

I have no idea how you took that comment as trolling, totally bizarre really.

sunama · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:21

NathanE said:
Alonso and MS... I've not really seen much slating this season for them. Alonso has had a quiet year. He seems to enjoy being out of the spotlight.

What has Alonso done wrong?
The guy has driven in a car which is 3rd best and is currently 3rd place in the WDC. The one time he did have the best car (Silverstone), he won.

MSc - you can't really place him in the same bracket as Alonso, Button, Vettel, Hamilton.

Mr Men · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:24

Alonso has been the driver of the year for me

don't see how he has been quiet? he has delivered amazing performances

NathanE · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:32

sunama said:
What has Alonso done wrong?
The guy has driven in a car which is 3rd best and is currently 3rd place in the WDC. The one time he did have the best car (Silverstone), he won.

MSc - you can't really place him in the same bracket as Alonso, Button, Vettel, Hamilton.

Sorry when I said quiet year I just meant quiet in terms of attention/hype

I think he prefers F1 when he isn't constantly hounded by the press like in years gone by.

I didn't place MS in any bracket, was just responding to Mr Men.

sunama · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:36

Oh, I see.

Duke · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:48

Skeeter said:
Massa is being slated for his off track moans and rants, in the exact same way Hamilton was for his.

Yep. I actually thought Massa was doing a steady, if not the most spectacular, job this season until he started moaning a lot.

Mr Men · 12 Oct 2011 at 10:54

Massa is fighting for his Ferrari contract, so I can understand why he is upset at a nameless driver who has ruined his race 3 times already

freebooter · 12 Oct 2011 at 11:27

Skeeter said:
its the 'Hamilton factor'.

Surely though a lot of the 'Hamilton factor' is that he has been over hyped by the British press and his fans. He was portrayed as the greatest driver the world will ever see and he should always be on pole and win every race. If he doesn't then it is the fault of the car, the stewards, other drivers etc etc

This was evident in the BBC coverage in Japan. The commentators several times said that he would have been on pole if he had got his 2nd run in qualifying. The fact is that he might have gone faster but nobody knows. Jenson was faster the whole weekend apart from that first run. Vettel has shown that he is brilliant at producing fast laps in qualifying. To assume that Lewis would have necessarily beaten them is presumptuous and shows no respect for the other drivers.

If the press gave a more honest and accurate portrayal of his ability then his current poor form wouldn't seem so bad. Coming 4th or 5th isn't a terrible result unless you believe that he should be first every race by right. He could still catch Jenson over the season if the remaining races go his way. He is obviously a very talented driver and capable of great performances but he isn't as far ahead of every other driver as the press and his fans believe.

There has been a lot of speculation about whether he is being psyched out by Jenson but I am surprised no one has talked about the effect Vettel's success may be having. Hamilton was hyped as the brilliant young driver who was going to win multiple championships for years to come. Instead it is Vettel that is getting the 'youngest ever' records and winning back to back titles and the talk is of whether he will be one of the greats and the start of the Vettel era.

As for people criticising Massa for moaning they seem to have forgotten Hamilton's comments about Massa and other drivers after Monaco and his moans about the stewards. Now, that was whining

Skeeter · 12 Oct 2011 at 12:02

sunama said:
What has Alonso done wrong?
The guy has driven in a car which is 3rd best and is currently 3rd place in the WDC. The one time he did have the best car (Silverstone), he won.

I disagree. I don't think the Ferrari was the best car at Silverstone, I just think Alonso drove an absolute stonker of a race. I don't like the guy at all, but at Silverstone he just hooked everything together and got it spot on, and you have to respect him for that.

Skeeter · 12 Oct 2011 at 12:08

freebooter said:
As for people criticising Massa for moaning they seem to have forgotten Hamilton's comments about Massa and other drivers after Monaco and his moans about the stewards. Now, that was whining

You made all those good points, and then ruined it with this.

Nobody has ignored the fact that Lewis moaned like a good'un and made some seriously bad taste jokes.

People who start to claim others are looking though rose tinted glasses and are ignoring Hamiltons mistakes are what is fueling this whole argument.

Despite stating numerous times that I am dissapointed with Lewis, and that he has made some mistakes and complained, Mr Men still insists that I am ignoring everything and claiming Hamilton is a squeeky clean innocent golden boy.

How can you have a discussions with that level of stubbornness?

Mr Men · 12 Oct 2011 at 12:12

Now you are trolling me as I have nothing to do with what the guy above posted

stop trying to drag me into it

ps3ud0 · 12 Oct 2011 at 12:35

FrankJH said:
On a clear day you may be right - but in that amount of rain (which makes it completely different to suzuka imo) there is no way anyone would be seen in the useless mirrors (given the spray from both cars and the rain coming down as normal) it would be hard enough to see a bright red Ferrari let alone a silvery/grey McLaren

Agreed how anyone actually thinks Button could spot a silver McLaren in pouring rain in their mirrors but then absolve Hamilton for taking his racing line and moving into Massa at Japan is frankly amazing and completely illogical.

Just to let others know Button was also taking his racing line for the approaching corner just after having a poor get away from the previous corner which allowed the following driver to catch up with him - hmmm what incident does that remind you of?

Both were racing incidents and both escaped any penalties from the Stewards...

ps3ud0 :cool:

sunama · 12 Oct 2011 at 12:54

I think that the word "troll" (and variants of) is being overused in this thread.

When somebody shares an opinion which is different to another person's, it is apparently "trolling", which is certainly not the case.

Also with regards to moaning: moaning should not detract from poor/great track performances.

Some people are suggesting that just because someone moans, this takes away from their on-track performance.

I must remind you that most of the greatest drivers in history, have a tendency to moan when things don't go their way. It doesn't make them any less of a driver.

Mansell, Senna, Prost, Hamilton, Alonso....all these guys, to name a few, have a history of moaning when things don't go their way or they feel they are being unjustly treated.

ps3ud0 · 12 Oct 2011 at 13:07

Skeeter said:
You know what, I agree, pretty much.

The issue is not the mistakes on their own. The issue is its Hamilton making the mistakes. Now wether your issue is the fact Hamilton is a top driver and is making these mistakes (as surnama's clealy is), or wether you just don't like Hamilton or want to join in with slating him, the crux is the same, its Hamilton.

The incidents in isolation are insignificant, and unremarkable, especially when compared with what else is going on elsewhere on the track.

This is the issue I have (obviously poorly) been trying to get accross all along, the incidents are not the problem, its the 'Hamilton factor'. The problem we have in these threads is that people are using their dislike for Hamilton or desire to 'join in with the gang' to inflate the incidents into something they aren't.

There is this mentality being created that Hamilton is making hundreds of horrendous stupid massive mistakes while everyone else on the grid has been squeeky clean. This is simply not the case. I have never disputed Hamilton has made mistakes, I have just disputed the inflated claims that they are the biggest mistakes in history and he deservers some sort of ban for it.

Hamilton is punishing himself enough for his mistakes, if he drops to 6th in the WDC, it will be his worst championship finishing position of his entire car racing career.

I cant help but disagree, you cant take the incidents in isolation when its the same driver involved in them - rightly or wrongly its the sheer amount of them that puts to question his status as a top driver. You wouldnt accept the same behaviour in other professions, so why shouldnt it matter here? I cant think of the last time a non-rookie/backmarker has been involved in so many 'nothing' incidents in a single season...

I do find your post very excusing, yes the incidents arent massive in terms of damage, but they arent what you would expect from the calibre of driver Hamilton is is supposed to be. I do think your vendetta that Hamilton is hated colours/clouds your reasoning skills especially when you only consider that its because its Hamilton, thats why he gets the brunt of the vitrole, yet ignore/sweep away his conduct both on and off track.

The way I see it is, if Hamilton is considered a top driver then thats the stick we need to measure him against and I cant recall another top driver in their relative prime having so many silly incidents (I think silly the best description, I dont they are malicious or calculated) in a season or acting as he has been off-track (mainly talking about his disrespect of the stewards - again not malicious or calculated, just stupid).

This in turn forces the next question, can Hamilton be considered a top driver if the above is acceptable? I presume Im not the only one who thinks nothing of a competitive Vettel/Alsonso/Button overtake, but winces when it Hamilton trying to do the same. Speaks volumes really...

Skeeter my advice to you is to realise that a lot of us here have a benchmark of what Hamilton should be doing if hes considered to be a top driver or the best in F1 currently and its that we are comparing with and not necessarily with the class of 2011. Its not because its Hamilton, but because of what a large amount of people consider him to be that that measurement is required...

ps3ud0 :cool:

arknor · 12 Oct 2011 at 13:15

sunama said:
What has Alonso done wrong?
The guy has driven in a car which is 3rd best and is currently 3rd place in the WDC. The one time he did have the best car (Silverstone), he won.
Alonso, Button, Vettel, Hamilton - you can't really place him in the same bracket as Msc.

alonso has done about the best he can, its hard to stand out when your car isnt really upto it.

hopefully the RBR , mclaren , ferrari and merc will all be fighting for podiums spots next year which would make it one of the toughest seasons ever