Japanese Grand Prix 2011, Suzuka Circuit - Race 15/19
- Thread starter Glaucus
- Start date
ps3ud0, I will try and demonstrate my position with an example.
The incident with Massa and Hamilton in Suzuka. It was a racing incident, yet it should be Hamiltons responsibility to be aware of the cars around him. Thats fair enough. So blame may lie with him. But at the end of the day, it was a minor tap that didn't effect either driver to badly.
It did not warrant the calls for a penalty from the commentators, the paddock, or us lot though. It was a minor scuff, the likes of which happen down the grid all the time.
I am not saying its not Hamiltons fault, I am also not saying its Ok for him to be making these mistakes, its not. What I am trying to say is that the massive uproar that comes from every incident and the massive over inflations of their seriousness is unjustified.
The same applies with the MSc and Maldonado passes in Monaco. The pass on MSc, "brilliant", the pass on Maldonado, "stupid", yet they were almost identical. I can't see how anyone (commentators, paddock or fans) can justify such a massive swing in opinion if it isn't backed by a desire to slate Hamilton. Its this 'when he's bad, he's absolutely diabolical' opinion that I am challenging, not the fact that he is doing badly, which is undeniable. Its clearly a difficult point to try to get across.
The incident with Massa and Hamilton in Suzuka. It was a racing incident, yet it should be Hamiltons responsibility to be aware of the cars around him. Thats fair enough. So blame may lie with him. But at the end of the day, it was a minor tap that didn't effect either driver to badly.
It did not warrant the calls for a penalty from the commentators, the paddock, or us lot though. It was a minor scuff, the likes of which happen down the grid all the time.
I am not saying its not Hamiltons fault, I am also not saying its Ok for him to be making these mistakes, its not. What I am trying to say is that the massive uproar that comes from every incident and the massive over inflations of their seriousness is unjustified.
The same applies with the MSc and Maldonado passes in Monaco. The pass on MSc, "brilliant", the pass on Maldonado, "stupid", yet they were almost identical. I can't see how anyone (commentators, paddock or fans) can justify such a massive swing in opinion if it isn't backed by a desire to slate Hamilton. Its this 'when he's bad, he's absolutely diabolical' opinion that I am challenging, not the fact that he is doing badly, which is undeniable. Its clearly a difficult point to try to get across.
Soldato
Even the passing attempt of Massa on the Monaco hairpin was legit. As brilliantly demonstrated by MSC and HAM a few laps earlier...
The most telling was the quote from Massa after the race when he said "He tried to pass me on the kerbs when I didn't think it was possible to overtake." He didn't think it was possible, so he did not cooperate with the legitimate overtake i.e. aggressive over defending. And that's all it boils down to. A F1 driver that should no longer be in the sport.
The Monaco stewards were totally and utterly inept this year.
The most telling was the quote from Massa after the race when he said "He tried to pass me on the kerbs when I didn't think it was possible to overtake." He didn't think it was possible, so he did not cooperate with the legitimate overtake i.e. aggressive over defending. And that's all it boils down to. A F1 driver that should no longer be in the sport.
The Monaco stewards were totally and utterly inept this year.
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That's a very good point.
If people around me are making significantly fewer mistakes, then my manager would definitely have a word with me. He wouldn't fire me, but he would definitely have discussion about this. It certainly wouldn't be brushed under the carpet.
If a top striker (such us Rooney or Torres), were misfiring and not scoring easy goals, eventually, they would get benched (and this has happened in the past).
Why should Hamilton be any different?
I hope this is the case, but I have a gut feeling that RBR is again, going to be the car to beat; especially their qualifying performance, which Ferrari/McLaren seem unable to do anything about.
But on the other hand, if thats Hamiltons growing reputation then the knee-jerk reaction is always going to be the same - I tried to allude to that regards my comments about how people feel when its Hamilton about to do the overtake.
Other arenas of sport have the same contentions, in football, if youre known to be a diver then its to be expected that any foul given for you is commentated on and scrutinized by commentators and fans alike.
Again a top driver would be expected to anticipate that; considering who they are overtaking and act accordingly IMHO. Overtaking a rookie is far different than overtaking a good driver - ones going to be aware of the possibility and give you just enough room (see Webber on Alsonso at Spa), while the other 9/10s isnt and therefore his subsequent actions arent known, but are reactive at best (majority of the rookies and backmarkers).
Its the norm to know whose a good overtaker and who isnt in this sport, so surely its not that difficult to consider that a similar reputation could happen regards being a good overtakee (any ideas what the right word is?!?) with regards to being fair and given room - i.e. a known reaction?
To me that sums up why Hamilton passed Schumacher unscathed but not so Maldonado. Though my personal opinion is probably a lot harsher irrelevant of who was being overtaken, one was on, one just wasnt - theres quite a lot of difference within 'almost identical' IMHO.
As a side point, it does make me think that Hamilton is very much like Kobayashi when it comes to overtakes, its just his success factor should far more greater when one is considered a top driver...
Its not that difficult a point to get across, its just a simplified viewpoint that I dont think many will agree with wholeheartedly. I dont see it as a witch hunt until others try to defend him so vehemently and make the mistake that its because its 'the Hamilton factor' that our opinion is so negative.
For me its more the case that if you guys think hes a top driver then thats what I should be expecting, the myriad of mistakes/incidents is not and that comes down to judgement and experience in my book...
ps3ud0
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harder to find time when your almost at the limit anyway and with so little rule changes i'd expect the other teams to atleast close the gap.
im sure theres a lot more motivation when you know theres time to be found aswell rather than scratching heads wondering what else you can do to what must be a pretty perfect car anyway
So when a driver overtakes a rookie, and the rookie makes a mistake that causes a crash, its the overtakers fault for not antisipating that the rookie would make a mistake
Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.
Yeah it is to an extent, its just like when you are driving normally and spot a learner driver in front of you and think 'Wonder if theyll stall, better be prepared etc...'. Why do you think P plates exist?So when a driver overtakes a rookie, and the rookie makes a mistake that causes a crash, its the overtakers fault for not antisipating that the rookie would make a mistake
Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.
Just replace learner driver with rookie and you with a top driver - its not that difficult to understand, unless anticipation isnt a skill you consider a top driver needs
EDIT: If I came up to pass a rookie, the first thing would be to make sure I dont leave myself open to a mistake of their doing, which in turn could ruin my race. Again Im flummoxed you dont grasp the psychology of this...
ps3ud0
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These guys are supposed to be the 24 top single seater drivers in the world! Not to mention they will have been through numerous lower Formula's. It is simply wrong to assume that a rookie driver to F1 does not have any skills in overtaking or being overtaken.
When the stewards investigate an incident, they should investigate that incident alone. The relative positions in the WDC of each driver, or their perceived skill level should have no bearing. It must be assumed that drivers competing at this top level have the necessary race craft abilities to do so. If not, then they have their licenses removed (I think this happened to Yamamoto?).
When the stewards investigate an incident, they should investigate that incident alone. The relative positions in the WDC of each driver, or their perceived skill level should have no bearing. It must be assumed that drivers competing at this top level have the necessary race craft abilities to do so. If not, then they have their licenses removed (I think this happened to Yamamoto?).
True to an extent but, nobody knows exactly what the limit is. This is why concentrating [or copying] someone elses design can improve performance slightly but understanding how all the pieces fit together is the key.
I think next year will be a lot closer also
Yet overtaking incidents happen to rookie and non-rookie alike year in year out...
ps3ud0
Soldato
I think Maldonaldo showed his true colours at Spa when he rammed Hamilton on purpose. It is very telling of exactly what went on at Monaco now.
That guy has a huge chip on his shoulder for Hamilton. There is probably some jealously, racism and being British doesn't help. That's the sort of character I believe Maldonaldo is.
There were rumours that Hamilton was f-ing and blinding at the stewards at Spa, and that's why he got reprimanded when nobody could see what he had done wrong.
That guy has a huge chip on his shoulder for Hamilton. There is probably some jealously, racism and being British doesn't help. That's the sort of character I believe Maldonaldo is.
There were rumours that Hamilton was f-ing and blinding at the stewards at Spa, and that's why he got reprimanded when nobody could see what he had done wrong.
Yet overtaking incidents happen to rookie and non-rookie alike year in year out...
ps3ud0
Exactly, so it has absolutely nothing to do with wether a driver is a rookie or not.
If this is true, then he deserved it.
However, I got the impression that Hamiltons reprimand was for the nudge on Maldonado at the chicane.
Nope it does when you are overtaking them, perhaps not when you are apportioning blame though if an incident occurs, but by that time though your race has been ruined...
Do you agree that a driver would probably prefer to overtake say Schumacher (or any expereinced driver) over someone like Maldonado (a rookie) though (if say they were in similar drives to make the hypothetical complete) ? And why blue flags were brought out to assist drivers at the front pass backmarkers - its not really just about the speed differential...
ps3ud0
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Soldato
But no driver should behave so aggressively when they're being overtaken that it causes danger. Yes every driver has a different style and some "yield" quicker than others. I think it is the sheer aggression of many of Hamilton's overtakes that causes it. The other driver becomes embarrassed and so does something stupid like turn in earlier than normal (Massa / Maldonaldo).
I think where your logic is more appropriate is the Kobayashi incident at Spa. That was an incident that could have been avoided IMO if Hamilton had granted a bit more respect to Kobayashi. Everyone knows Koby is a touch cookie to crack. Just when you think you've passed him, he will already be eyeing up his counter attack.
I think where your logic is more appropriate is the Kobayashi incident at Spa. That was an incident that could have been avoided IMO if Hamilton had granted a bit more respect to Kobayashi. Everyone knows Koby is a touch cookie to crack. Just when you think you've passed him, he will already be eyeing up his counter attack.
Oh I agree, but why place the overtakers car in a place where thats the potential? One thing Ive said about quite a few of the Hamilton incidents is that he just leaves himself open to have his race ruined...
I dont think its about how quick they 'yield' but more once they accept (if they are aware of it even) the pass then they need to be fair to avoid incidence. I think that comes with experience As you said everyone has a style, but care to share Maldonaldos? I dont know it, dont expect many do though...
Definitely far more psychology involved than I first considered really...
ps3ud0
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I also think you need to factor in that drivers know Ham has had his fair share of incidents and pay the percentage game because he's already looking bad....I feel Schuey did that at Monza because he knew 100% Ham was going to be tentative. Button comes along and Schuey lets him go, partly because JB had better tyres and partly because he knew he'd get a penalty if he tried it again...
The Spa incident would have been avoided with a simple check of the mirrors from Hamilton. He didnt, he didnt know Kobayashi was there, he crashed. In fairness, after sailing past through the DRS zone I doubt Hamilton would have expected Kobayashi to be right there, so wouldn't have felt the need to check his mirrors. The Spa incident was just one of those things. Hamilton was right to not expect him to be there, Kobayashi was right to have a go back. Racing incident, Hamilton crashed hard but was ok, job done, move on.
