Japanese Grand Prix 2014, Suzuka - Race 15/19

Django x2 said:
I've never understood why the F1 calendar fails so hard at running events consistent in location to avoid (with the greatest chances) such bad weather.
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It's difficult to get everything perfect. They already try to avoid cold seasons in some locations all the while making travel journeys most efficient (for ex, going from US to EU then to US again isn't very economical)
 
While you may be able to almost remove JCBs from the track (look at Monaco for example), you will never be able to avoid having marshals and other personnel on the track. Jules hitting the recovery vehicle is awful, but there are a number of marshals who are incredibly lucky that they weren't hit.

Removing JCBs only removes some of the risk. Making the whole area safer would (in my opinion) be a better solution to look at.
 
Kenai said:
To be honest I think skirts is the wrong solution, or perhaps more accurately not the preferable solution in isolation.

The 'safety hierarchy' that gets drilled into you is eliminate > substitute > control > PPE.

In my eyes, the better situation is that you eliminate the problem of Formula 1 cars hitting JCBs rather than try and control what happens when they do, by simply not allowing JCBs on track without a safety car in operation to slow the cars down.

You can put skirts on as well but as I see it, the primary objective is to avoid the possibility of it happening in the first place rather than simply mitigating the severity of it if it does.
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The problem with this, is you still need marshals on the circuit, so ultimately, what you need is cranes behind the barriers that can automatically hook onto the cars, roll hoop.

This would eliminate the need for marshals on track at the scene of an accident, in all but the very worst situations. In Which case, a full red flag should be deployed and a maximum speed out on circuit applied until the race has re-started.

So, you are correct, elimination is the key, but imagine in this situation again, there was a crane, the people who were on scene may have been collected by the crashing car. Which would almost certainly have ended in more people injured. Think back to the terrible Tom Pryce incident, those marshals should never have been on the track at that point, and 2 people died as a result. Admittedly the situation is quite different, but in the end, we still have people running about infront of the safety barriers whilst cars are driving fast enough to lose control.

The only sure fire way to eliminate these secondary accidents and danger from equipment on the track is the stop all the cars before the marshals and equipment are allowed on scene.

However, how this will affect the racing is probably why it will never happen!
 
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Django x2 said:
I've never understood why the F1 calendar fails so hard at running events consistent in location to avoid (with the greatest chances) such bad weather.
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Hasn't it been over 2 years since the last wet race? There is always going to be a chance with rain - other than yesterday, I can't remember the last bad crash that happened as a result of the weather. Motorsport is dangerous... always will be.
 
Wet races are fine. How everything happens around the track in the rain after an incident is where things need to be looked at.
Clearly double waved yellows is not slow enough to ensure no repeat accidents at the scene, at least how they are implemented currently.
 
We know the cars have speed limiters for the pitlane - could they not just implement the same kind of speed limit for yellow flag sections? It seems the rule of "slow down a bit and dont set a fast time" is really open to interpretation.
 
MooMoo444 said:
We know the cars have speed limiters for the pitlane - could they not just implement the same kind of speed limit for yellow flag sections? It seems the rule of "slow down a bit and dont set a fast time" is really open to interpretation.
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Yes, that could work, but as these are not automatic, the drivers would have to apply them as soon as they were given the signal. So, how do you enforce this? You would need a timing line to ensure that it was applied before the scene, and at some positions that would mean 2/3s of the lap would be under the limiter, due to the limited timing lines.
So, then you need more timing points to make it work efficiently.

I doubt a full course speed limit will go down well with the drivers/teams, as they would lose brake and tyre temperature, and probably get overheating becoming an issue.

That would be more dangerous arguably. Although, I suppose it is little different to the safety car situation really.
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
Yes, that could work, but as these are not automatic, the drivers would have to apply them as soon as they were given the signal. So, how do you enforce this? You would need a timing line to ensure that it was applied before the scene, and at some positions that would mean 2/3s of the lap would be under the limiter, due to the limited timing lines.
So, then you need more timing points to make it work efficiently.

I doubt a full course speed limit will go down well with the drivers/teams, as they would lose brake and tyre temperature, and probably get overheating becoming an issue.

That would be more dangerous arguably. Although, I suppose it is little different to the safety car situation really.
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Mandate it by track sector and have the limit be parade lap pace (whatever that actually is). The idea was it would be automated/controlled, rather than driver controlled, by the race director.
 
There are timing sectors about every 100m, basically at every flag point. We just get 3 sectors for TV.

They could enforce the pit limiter to be applied through the yellow flag zone. They can then use the timing lines to validate that the drivers apply it throughout.

As I've said, Slow Zones are used in WEC and GT racing already, with great success. It would be relatively simple to apply it to F1.
 
Malt_Vinegar said:
Yes, that could work, but as these are not automatic, the drivers would have to apply them as soon as they were given the signal. So, how do you enforce this? You would need a timing line to ensure that it was applied before the scene, and at some positions that would mean 2/3s of the lap would be under the limiter, due to the limited timing lines.
So, then you need more timing points to make it work efficiently.
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The FIA have timing loops every 20m or something ridiculous that are used to track the positions of the cars on track anyway. The FIA already have infrastructure in place to allow them to send signals to the ECU (blue/yellow flag indications etc)

It's pretty trivial to use all of this to implement a solution where once a car passes a particular point on the track where a "Yellow zone" starts the car would automatically apply a speed limiter and cut engine power until the car has slowed to the limit (the exact nature/location of the power loss could be controlled to avoid sudden/dangerous loss of speed). Once you pass another point for the end of the yellow zone, full engine power is restored and the limiter released (release of the limiter could be driver controlled with the system simply providing an indicator that they are allowed to release it in order to prevent an unexpected surge of power)
 
They need to add areas before all the major corners where they can temporarly close of the corner and let the drivers take a different route while the car is removed.

All it would take is a straight bit of track/road before the corner linking with the track after the corner.

This way the race goes on and everyone is safe to remove the car then they can reopen.
 
redrooster303 said:
They need to add areas before all the major corners where they can temporarly close of the corner and let the drivers take a different route while the car is removed.

All it would take is a straight bit of track/road before the corner linking with the track after the corner.

This way the race goes on and everyone is safe to remove the car then they can reopen.
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"All it would take"... is a complete overhaul of every corner of every track on the F1 calendar to have 2 routes!

What about crashes on straights? What about crashes near pit entrance or exits?

Should the FIA mandate 2 identical tracks get built, one on top of the other, so they can switch between them when they need to access one part for an accident?

I really hope you were being sarcastic. :rolleyes:
 
You can't just force the pit limiter on a car that is going at high speed, if they are mid way through a corner cutting the power is going to unbalance to car so you would need to make sure the cars are in a straight line
 
I know what I said sounds complicated but all I mean is something like the run off zones they all ready have in place.

They could flash the yellows and then put a couple of plastic signs before the corner telling them to take the off route.

I realise not all corners/straights would work with this but it would be a start. And yes some extra track may have to be made in parts except where not feasible.

You get the idea and maybe theres an easier way than I explained but the same idea.

Just an idea.
 
howler said:
You can't just force the pit limiter on a car that is going at high speed, if they are mid way through a corner cutting the power is going to unbalance to car so you would need to make sure the cars are in a straight line
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You wouldn't force it on. Like you said thats going to cause all sorts of issues.

What you do is define a zone where you must run through it with the limiter on, inform the drivers with radios and flags/lights, and then let them control it. Much like they do with the pit limiter.

This is exactly how it works in other series. I.e. they define a Slow Zone between timing line 50 and timing line 75, and monitor that drivers are on the limiter throughout that section. Anyone who isn't is automatically flagged up on the computers and Race Control apply a defined penalty, like a drive through.

Edit: This videos shows quite well how it works at Le Mans.


There is no real obstructions to putting this in F1.
 
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Skeeter said:
As I've said, Slow Zones are used in WEC and GT racing already, with great success. It would be relatively simple to apply it to F1.
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Although I agree that this is the most sensible option, WEC races are 6-24 hours long, so being careful and slowing early is not penalised time wise as badly as in a 2 hour event. Unless you mandate a specific time for that sector, and then add/subtract time to a driver at the end of the race, the drivers will always push as hard through the sector as they can get away with.

kaiowas said:
where a "Yellow zone" starts the car would automatically apply a speed limiter and cut engine power until the car has slowed to the limit
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I don't think anyone would agree to an automatic system, as things go wrong with them, and a sudden loss of power in the wet at the same time as swerving or aquaplaning would cause as much of an accident as manual control.

redrooster303 said:
They need to add areas before all the major corners where they can temporarly close of the corner and let the drivers take a different route while the car is removed.
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For modern tracks that could work, but in many situations there just isn't enough room. Take Melbourne for example, the track is lined by walls. Plus with the number of overhanging trees, cranes would not even be an option. Also, extra roads would not be as used as the track, so there would be no way to know what grip levels there would be on them, and cars could spin there instead.
 
And what if the leader hit the slow zone has to go 50mph or something, then the incident is cleared and the guy behind has no slow zone warning? Hardly going to be fair.
 
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