Man of Honour
Dont think Alonso would be that expensive. He wants to be competitive, he's not here for money. Otherwise he would have just kept the easy life at Ferrari.
Poll: Japanese Grand Prix 2017, Suzuka - Race 16/20
- Thread starter Shimmy
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Soldato
No one wants Bottas' seat. Wut? I'm sure any top driver would snap that seat up in a flash.
Don't recall him being particularly cheap or competitive for McLaren or Ferrari before them. And when he's not winning, he's just slating the team and leaving behind wreckage when he leaves. He may be a good driver, but he's not worth the hassle, and he's not got much time left on his career. I think when considering Alonso, any team boss asks themselves "what has he done lately?" The answer is not much and not good.
Soldato
I don't think Alonso as much hassle as is made out, he just wants the chance to win. He was using some choice words about Ferrari in 2014 as they were shockingly bad (which is why he left, as at that point it looked like a gamble worth taking) and he's reigning in his complaining about Honda since the split was announced.
He left McLaren in 2007 under a cloud but you've got to consider that Ron had found his new baby (Senna > Hakkinen > Raikkonen (to a lesser degree) > Hamilton) and when Hamilton landed on his feet early that year he was always going to be Ron's choice (recall what Coulthard said about Ron's relationship with Hakkinen in particular; the "what are they doing" attitude (the other side of the garage). I'm not condoning what Alonso did in response, but it must have been hard joining the team as the reigning double world champion and thinking he was the effective number one only to be shuffled aside apparently in the fallout after Monaco.
As Alonso showed at Indy, he just wants the opportunity to challenge for wins now. He's on enormous amounts of money but McLaren aren't paying him that (currently). If he was offered a Mercedes seat tomorrow I'd imagine he'd do it for little or nothing, so long as he was guaranteed equal status.
He's still a top driver, in my opinion still the best driver overall, but there's not much separating him from Hamilton. I think Hamilton's ultimate pace is quicker (and Vandoorne is starting to give Alonso a challenge in qualifying to demonstrate that), but Alonso's pace is more relentless and more consistent, though that aspect of Hamilton has improved an awful lot over the last few years too, when his head is in the right place. Still Hamilton has been beaten by Bottas on pure pace twice this year, and by Rosberg occasionally too, and few rate them in the same bracket.
Alonso has always reminded me of a more talented and focussed version of Mansell. They shared the same relentless determination in all but the most forlorn of occasions.
I had Vettel up there with them too, but I'm not quite as sure as I once was. I think he'd give either a fight to the wire in the same car, but he looks under immense pressure at Ferrari and has done since he moved. I'm not sure he's been quite the same since he's become a father.
He left McLaren in 2007 under a cloud but you've got to consider that Ron had found his new baby (Senna > Hakkinen > Raikkonen (to a lesser degree) > Hamilton) and when Hamilton landed on his feet early that year he was always going to be Ron's choice (recall what Coulthard said about Ron's relationship with Hakkinen in particular; the "what are they doing" attitude (the other side of the garage). I'm not condoning what Alonso did in response, but it must have been hard joining the team as the reigning double world champion and thinking he was the effective number one only to be shuffled aside apparently in the fallout after Monaco.
As Alonso showed at Indy, he just wants the opportunity to challenge for wins now. He's on enormous amounts of money but McLaren aren't paying him that (currently). If he was offered a Mercedes seat tomorrow I'd imagine he'd do it for little or nothing, so long as he was guaranteed equal status.
He's still a top driver, in my opinion still the best driver overall, but there's not much separating him from Hamilton. I think Hamilton's ultimate pace is quicker (and Vandoorne is starting to give Alonso a challenge in qualifying to demonstrate that), but Alonso's pace is more relentless and more consistent, though that aspect of Hamilton has improved an awful lot over the last few years too, when his head is in the right place. Still Hamilton has been beaten by Bottas on pure pace twice this year, and by Rosberg occasionally too, and few rate them in the same bracket.
Alonso has always reminded me of a more talented and focussed version of Mansell. They shared the same relentless determination in all but the most forlorn of occasions.
I had Vettel up there with them too, but I'm not quite as sure as I once was. I think he'd give either a fight to the wire in the same car, but he looks under immense pressure at Ferrari and has done since he moved. I'm not sure he's been quite the same since he's become a father.
Caporegime
Alonso expected to dominate and then lost the plot and chucked his toys when he was faced with a driver of Hamilton's talents. I don't have a lot of sympathy for him, frankly. His failure to up his game or keep his composure when faced with Hamilton-level competition is a serious strike against him. Still, Alonso is an astoundingly good driver; that he has two WDCs to Vettel's four is a remarkable injustice of modern F1.
I think Hamilton is now clearly above Alonso. Until the last season or two, I'd have given it to Alonso for overall grit and consistency but Hamilton has upped his game and, imo, is now clearly the best driver in F1.
No driver is perfect. There will also be times they are off their best, or tracks they dislike, I don't think Rosberg or Bottas beating Hamilton in the odd race counts for much. It's even less meaningful in comparison since so many teams have refused to let their drivers race in the way that Mercedes have.
Vettel is a good driver, no doubt, and his win in Italy 2008 was remarkable. But he was lucky to win in 2010 - Webber would have taken it if he hadn't broken his shoulder, imo - and his domination in 2011-2013 was more down to Webber's fading star and the huge technical lead of Red Bull than Vettel being the best of the best. His utter trouncing by Ricciardo in 2014 confirmed my opinion of him as good but not that good. I also suspect that Hamilton, Alonso, or - had they been old enough: Ricciardo or Verstappen - would have won in 2009 in that Red Bull. The 2009 Red Bull was the second best car through the first part of the season, and the best through the second part; I suspect a better driver could have edged it against Button.
I think this is worth re-iterating, because it's true of teams as well as drivers. Sure, occasionally other teams/drivers win here and there, but that's just getting crumbs from the table when they get lucky. You don't win championships that way. It's the teams that can hammer out wins and podiums regularly that win the championships, and why the likes of Hamilton and Mercedes are doing so well at the moment.
I'd also rate Hamilton as the best driver out there. He's matured massively over the last couple of years. He rarely makes mistakes, and yet still manages to be absurdly and consistently quick in the car.
Soldato
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Hmmm
Im not sure Hamilton is the best on the grid. Yes he is consistently quick but to be fair he has had the best car on the grid for a very long time now as well as the stability of staying in the same team for years. Things are comfortable. Thats not to take anything away from Hamilton - he is an awesome driver. Everyone says they would like to see X driver against Hamilton in a Merc.
I would rather see Hamilton against X driver in a different team. Hamilton vs Alonso at Mclaren would be very interesting. We would see who is the best at finding 10ths then!
Im not sure Hamilton is the best on the grid. Yes he is consistently quick but to be fair he has had the best car on the grid for a very long time now as well as the stability of staying in the same team for years. Things are comfortable. Thats not to take anything away from Hamilton - he is an awesome driver. Everyone says they would like to see X driver against Hamilton in a Merc.
I would rather see Hamilton against X driver in a different team. Hamilton vs Alonso at Mclaren would be very interesting. We would see who is the best at finding 10ths then!
Soldato
When you look into the politics of it, and the history of Ron Dennis in particular, as has been stated publicly by one of his own drivers, I don't think it's fair to say that was an even fight, not before Monaco (for Alonso/Hamilton having to play second fiddle) and not after Monaco (for Hamilton/Alonso out of favour).
I think most of the last 3 seasons has featured some of Alonso's best driving, especially looking at races (qualifying has always been his weakest area). It would be easy for such a highly regarded driver to lose motivation with such dire equipment (look at Vettel in 2014 or Prost in 1991) but he's continuously put in impressive drives - you could see it in the Minardi in 2001 and you can still see it today.
Hamilton has certainly upped his game since Mercedes became dominant (prior to 2014 the only teammate he comprehensively beat was Heikki Kovalainen). He very rarely makes mistakes now, but the advantage he has enjoyed with his car has perhaps played a large role in that. He seems to have largely overcome the mood swings that went with or contributed to poor performances too.
Honestly, given equal equipment I don't think there wouldn't be much to separate them over a season. In a parallel world it would be brilliant to have seen them in each other's position over the past few seasons and see how they would have reacted.
Before the season I felt Hamilton would leave if he won the title this year (he seemed to have too many distractions and his life was leading him further from F1, particularly with his music), but he still seems focussed at Mercedes. Perhaps the big shuffle in 2019 will lead to two spaces at Mercedes.
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I'd love to see the reversal of that one personally as we've seen Riciardo against Vettel and Riciardo seemingly came out on top. Vettel's brain would explode racing Max in the same machinery.
Soldato
Team radio from this race
https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/11/2017-japanese-grand-prix-team-radio-transcript/
https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/10/11/2017-japanese-grand-prix-team-radio-transcript/