I agree completely. Seeing all the Rosberg haters on twitter when Sky announced it was embarrassing. I found his insight fascinating (regardless of what you think of him), he gave honest answers in areas never covered by the old boys.
Poll: Japanese Grand Prix 2017, Suzuka - Race 16/20
- Thread starter Shimmy
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Well you say that but I think he has driven a lot better at both Williams and Merc and actually if you look at his qualifying pace he isnt THAT slow and often within a few tenths of Hamilton. He has also podiumed in 10 of the 16 races in 2017.
So simply saying Bottas is not very good isnt really a fair comment in my view. He is good. He just isnt as good as Rosberg was but then Rosberg had 6 years in the merc and only won the championship once. No mean feat but it isnt exactly like Rosberg was a stellar driver. He didnt win a race or pole for like the first 5 years or so of his f1 career. In fact he only really came to life properly in the last couple of seasons of his career.
Reading between the lines i think there are perhaps other things going with Bottas. Maybe the team using set ups / tactics on his car for data gathering etc. Maybe using him as a tool to aid Hamilton. Maybe personal issues with Bottas himelf. I think he has the raw talent to be driving better than he is. So it makes me wonder if the 'underperformance' is in some way intentional.
Plus also the Ferrari and Red Bull cars are much more competitive this year than they were for the last couple of years that Rosberg was driving.
It's not just this season he's seemed decidedly mid tier. Also Riccardo and Lewis both showed how talent can tell even in a first season against a big name driver.
Good is a very relative statement in F1. There isn't a truly bad driver on track but you compare Bottas to Lewis and Alonso and he's not on the same level, he's not up there with Riccardo or Max, nor even Vettel. I doubt he'd best Kimi in a straight fight. He's better than Massa, Stroll, and Palmer and far less erratic than Kyvat. Personally I'd describe that kind of level as "not very good", YMMV.
What has he done that makes you think he's that good? Yes, he beat his team mates while at Williams but those team mates were Maldanado who - apart from his one astounding drive in Spain - was regarded as a joke by many fans, and Massa whose bright career start was crushed by Ferrari and who was well past his best. Beating these shows he's no slouch but it hardly qualifies him for top six, surely? His record before F1 is solid but not spectacular for an F1 driver, so there's nothing there to suggest top six potential. This year he's been outclassed by Hamilton to a much greater extent than Rosberg was in any of the four seasons they were team mates. I'm just not seeing what you're looking at and going "top six".
My order...
Hamilton - Alonso
Vettel
Verstappen
Ric
Bottas
Kimi
So the more important question is, who exactly from the rest of the field would YOU put above kimi and bottas??
notwithstanding, he's third in the WDC right now and we're nearly at the end of the season.
Hamilton - Alonso
Vettel
Verstappen
Ric
Bottas
Kimi
So the more important question is, who exactly from the rest of the field would YOU put above kimi and bottas??
notwithstanding, he's third in the WDC right now and we're nearly at the end of the season.Not sure where I'd put alonso. Would love to see him in Ferrari. He may not be as good as Hamilton any moreMy order...
Hamilton - Alonso
Vettel
Verstappen
Ric
Bottas
Kimi
So the more important question is, who exactly from the rest of the field would YOU put above kimi and bottas??
So the more important question is, who exactly from the rest of the field would YOU put above kimi and bottas??
He's third in the WDC in the best car, one that can be matched by the Ferraris in a few places, and the Red Bull only on rare occasions. I'm sure that a number of drivers on the grid would achieve third place given the same car. Some of them would likely come second. We can talk orders, and they'll contain an amount of objective fact and subjective judgement, what interests me is what you're calling on to make those judgements. For me, I've not seen anything from Bottas to make me think he's better than other mid-tier drivers - the likes of Sainz, Grosjean, Vandorne, Perez, Ocon, or Hulkenburg - or drivers such as Wehrlein who we're yet to see take the wheel behind a worthwhile car. So, for me he exists in a fairly undifferentiated blob of drivers who sit in the mid-tier. Drivers who are probably good enough to win if they ever luck into the right car without a better team mate, but aren't anything really special.
But, since you posted an order I'll post mine, drivers grouped together in brackets are ones I don't think there's information to particularly tell apart. This reflects current level, some were better in the past or may improve:
Hamilton
(Alonso, Ricciardo*)
Verstappen*
Vettel
(Bottas, Kimi, Perez, Grosjean, Sainz, Wehrlein, Vandoorne, Hulkenburg)
(Massa, Magnussen, Ocon)
(Ericsson, Stroll, Kvyat)
Palmer
* I really don't understand why people put Verstappen ahead of Ricciardo when Ricciardo is comfortable ahead of him overall both this season and last. Max is an exciting talent but Ricciardo is clearly better than him right now, and is a prodigious talent in his own right.
That's your opinion but I wouldn't put either driver in the "blob" above bottas because, as you say, they aren't really anything special and haven't really had the chance to show. I'll read your list as putting Bottas joint 6th, with a bunch of other drivers though 
If he was "not very good" I'd certainly expect kimi to at least be pushing him for the points, but he isn't. So there lies my issue with the terminology "not very good". In the language "not very good" it would suggest the opposite "poor", like in conversation "oh, he's not very good". However, if we're talking some mystical ocuk measurable rating system, perhaps "not very good" could mean he is just "good", which I'd happily accept. Alas, I don't think that's what was meant by the original comment.
Ric has been performing very well in his RB and placing himself well above kimi. Max has just been plagued with a dogged car, otherwise I think he'd be contending and claiming 4th from Ric.
If he was "not very good" I'd certainly expect kimi to at least be pushing him for the points, but he isn't. So there lies my issue with the terminology "not very good". In the language "not very good" it would suggest the opposite "poor", like in conversation "oh, he's not very good". However, if we're talking some mystical ocuk measurable rating system, perhaps "not very good" could mean he is just "good", which I'd happily accept. Alas, I don't think that's what was meant by the original comment.
Ric has been performing very well in his RB and placing himself well above kimi. Max has just been plagued with a dogged car, otherwise I think he'd be contending and claiming 4th from Ric.
Surely the problem is not a general Bottas isn't very good or whatever choice of words you want but rather, who is better that would actually drive for Merc alongside Hamilton? I can't really disagree with your lists too much but I don't see any of them wanting to take Bottas' seat.
Well, I'd love to see Alonso there, personally. But I'd also choose someone like Wehrlein over Bottas. I'd like to see top seats taken by top drivers or promising talent. Instead we have a rather disinterested Kimi who is a shadow of his former self, and a safe-but-boring choice in Bottas. At least the Red Bull drivers are top tier.
They will all want Bottas' seat because they all want to get into a Merc, and all think they can beat Hamilton given the chance. Mercedes won't want a second driver like Alonso that will upset the team dynamic and go back to the days of inter-team fighting as they had with Rosberg and their cars taking each other off the track. Plus Alonso will be massively more expensive than a Bottas, and they are already paying for Hamilton. At least Hamilton is winning and getting them a lot of valuable advertising outside of the sport.