Jimmy Savile - Sexual Predator

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

An example of this would be people thinking Saville raping kids and having it hushed up was a normal part of the culture back then and that we shouldn't look into it because it might damage a charity.

No it wouldn't. You said "our rape culture." We do not have one. Referring to a historical period in context does not alter the current society we live in.

I think you need to take a step back; the point that "it was less of an issue back in the 70s" is a valid point as it brings a historical context to the issue. You're taking a modern standpoint toward a problem that happened almost forty years ago and then slamming everybody who doesn't display what you deem to be an appropriate amount of OMG TO THE INTERNETS OUTRAGE!

Do Scandinavian countries have a rape culture that needs addressing because Vikings and Saxons raped and pillaged their way around Europe?
 
No it wouldn't. You said "our rape culture." We do not have one. Referring to a historical period in context does not alter the current society we live in.

I think you need to take a step back; the point that "it was less of an issue back in the 70s" is a valid point as it brings a historical context to the issue. You're taking a modern standpoint toward a problem that happened almost forty years ago and then slamming everybody who doesn't display what you deem to be an appropriate amount of OMG TO THE INTERNETS OUTRAGE!

Do Scandinavian countries have a rape culture that needs addressing because Vikings and Saxons raped and pillaged their way around Europe?
30/40 years ago ≠ 1000/1200 years ago.

Believe it or not, people from 30/40 years ago are still around today - (ie, people over the age of 40 for one - which is quite a number).
 
The fact that you think the only reason someone can want to combat rape culture can only mean they themselves were abused and have highlighted that shows your true feelings towards rape and how lightly you take it.

Nice job of twisting my point....

My true feelings on rape and child abuse are actually stated VERY clearly in the last paragraph of my post. I did this deliberately as I knew you would try and twist it around:

No doubt I will now be called a "rape apologist" or condone child abuse by him, both of which I actually find abhorrent but that won't stop him believing otherwise.


What part of me finding rape and/or child abuse abhorrent do you find confusing to allow you to form the opinion that I take it lightly?


I am grown up and open minded enough to interact in a frank discussion about it without accusing people of condoning rape in the atypical melodramatic fashion you keep posting in.
 
30/40 years ago ≠ 1000/1200 years ago.

Believe it or not, people from 30/40 years ago are still around today - (ie, people over the age of 40 for one - which is quite a number).

I fail to see the relevance of whatever point it is you are trying to make.

There has been mass public outcry about this, societal values and views have changed enormously since then. Surprisingly, people over the age of 40 do not automatically think 'what's the big deal?'

We do not live in a rape culture for christ's sake. Have you even seen the news coverage and near universal condemnation of Savile and his alleged cohorts?
 
I fail to see the relevance of whatever point it is you are trying to make.
That 40 years ago isn't a long time - but social attitudes have changed overall - but certain people are still stuck in the past (as you can see by some of the stupid comments on here).

I was simply pointing out using the Vikings historic rape/pillage (something which happened 1200(ish) years ago to attempt to discredit a comparison drawn 40 years ago doesn't help your case.

If you look at the statistics regarding blame for rape we do still have a culture, if you look at the statistics showing the amount of women who have been raped, sexually assaulted or molested it also indicates we do have a cultural problem.
 
[TW]Fox;22937497 said:
Whole thing just seems so bizarre.

I think more important than Saville is what role those who *are* still around played in anything that may have happened.

Bingo, this is why it needs to be investigated.
 
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

An example of this would be people thinking Saville raping kids and having it hushed up was a normal part of the culture back then and that we shouldn't look into it because it might damage a charity.

I have read a few of your posts on this matter and whilst I agree in a perfect world we should not blame the victim of any crime, I think those ideals do not stand up in the 'real' world. The fact remains the world has some vile people in it, and recognising that fact and taking precautions against it does not make someone an apologist.

I wonder, are you true to your blame principles, though?

Some questions for you to answer:

Do you lock your doors at night?

Do you lock your car when you are not using it?

Do you put valuables out of sight in said car when you park in an unfamiliar or rough looking area?

If you have young children do you let them walk home alone at night from a friends house?

When you have been to a social occasion, do you wander home through dark alleys because it is the fastest route, or take a well lit route or call a taxi/take a bus?

When you go on holiday, do you leave your house unlocked with your car keys in plain view from the windows? If not, why not?

When you are carrying a lot of money in your wallet/purse do you handle it discreetly, and make a point of not showing the money obviously?

When you are buying something on credit/debit card or using a cash machine do you try and mask your PIN number so that others can't see it?

Do you have an anti virus on your computer and/or other malware detection programs?

Do you have a security alarm on your house?


When you start looking at life as a whole, by your logic, the majority of us are apologists for crime. Most of us lock our homes at night. Why? In case we get burgled and to keep out any other unwanted visitors. Most of us lock our cars when not using them. Why? In case they get robbed or stolen. Most of us have anti-virus and malware programs on our PC. Why? In case we get our personal details stolen and misused. Most people with kids would never allow them to wander the streets at night or walk home alone in the dark. Why? In case they get mugged, beat up or abducted.

Acknowledging there are risks and taking precautions against them is a sensible thing to do. In the case of rape or other sexual crimes this basic truth does not become less true. A crime is a crime, and they are all wrong but as a responsible person, leaving yourself vulnerable to become a victim of crime is something I bet you don't do in most every day circumstances? Do you?

Why then can you not apply the same logic that the majority of people apply to their lives in regard to rape?

Why is rape any different from any other crime against a person? Why are precautions against such crimes seen as apologist behaviour in the case of rape?

Also, I noticed you made the point of stating you were not raped or abused as a child. What about as an adult?

Personally, I respect that you have a right to your opinions, but calling people filthy apologists because they feel people should take precautions with their personal safety and possessions is a little short sighted and, dare I say it, discourteous. Effectively you are saying they are wrong and you are right - which in an open discussion is tantamount to bigotry.

As for Savile, I always got a bad feeling about him. I found him to be quite creepy.

If the accusations are true, I cannot say I am surprised. I would like to see a full investigation because I do not feel he would have been the sole instigator of such crimes. Other people may have been involved with his abuse and need to be brought to book. All involved parties need to be brought to justice, irrelevant of his good work and his charity.

Cheers

Buff
 
Strained analogy


Your analogy fails in one very important respect. If you leave your front door unlocked, and someone comes in and nicks your TV, we may indeed call you an idiot. But a jury will still convict them. It won't let them off because the burglary was your fault. But rape victims have repeatedly been let down by juries who refuse to convict women who "were asking for it". We correctly tell mugging victims that getting a full wallet out in the grimmest part of town after dark was a bit silly, but the CPS doesn't drop charges because it was their own fault. THAT is what is different about rape.
 
I have read a few of your posts on this matter and whilst I agree in a perfect world we should not blame the victim of any crime, I think those ideals do not stand up in the 'real' world. The fact remains the world has some vile people in it, and recognising that fact and taking precautions against it does not make someone an apologist.

I wonder, are you true to your blame principles, though?

<big snip>

As for Savile, I always got a bad feeling about him. I found him to be quite creepy.

If the accusations are true, I cannot say I am surprised. I would like to see a full investigation because I do not feel he would have been the sole instigator of such crimes. Other people may have been involved with his abuse and need to be brought to book. All involved parties need to be brought to justice, irrelevant of his good work and his charity.

Cheers

Buff
Regarding the big snip part.

There is a difference between believing somebody to be at fault or blameworthy to acknowledging certain actions increase the risk of X ,Y or Z occurring.

If somebody one night forgot to lock the front door & somebody broke in & murdered 3 of there children - people don't tend to ascribe blame to the victims in this case in the same way people do with victims of rape.

If person A asks a chav to stop smoking on a bus & gets stabbed to death over it, do we blame them for inciting the chav?, or ignoring the fact that sometimes chavs sometimes over-react? - no, we firmly apply blame on the perpetrators.

Only really in rape do people feel the need to blame the victims in the way they do.

This is because we have a deep rooted cultural sexist double standard regarding female promiscuousness & outdated quasi-religious values of female purity in most of the developed & developing world still.

Your analogy fails in one very important respect. If you leave your front door unlocked, and someone comes in and nicks your TV, we may indeed call you an idiot. But a jury will still convict them. It won't let them off because the burglary was your fault. But rape victims have repeatedly been let down by juries who refuse to convict women who "were asking for it". We correctly tell mugging victims that getting a full wallet out in the grimmest part of town after dark was a bit silly, but the CPS doesn't drop charges because it was their own fault. THAT is what is different about rape.
Exactly, very well put.
 
So now we have nurses coming out saying that Saville used to abuse children in hospitals where he had his own personal 'flats' and that they turned a blind eye to it because of the amount of money he raised for them.

It's absolutely sickening to me that people can allow such a thing to happen for the sake of money and (presumably) keeping their jobs.
 
Your analogy fails in one very important respect. If you leave your front door unlocked, and someone comes in and nicks your TV, we may indeed call you an idiot. But a jury will still convict them. It won't let them off because the burglary was your fault. But rape victims have repeatedly been let down by juries who refuse to convict women who "were asking for it". We correctly tell mugging victims that getting a full wallet out in the grimmest part of town after dark was a bit silly, but the CPS doesn't drop charges because it was their own fault. THAT is what is different about rape.

I'm sorry, and your evidence for this is?

Buff
 
Your analogy fails in one very important respect. If you leave your front door unlocked, and someone comes in and nicks your TV, we may indeed call you an idiot. But a jury will still convict them. It won't let them off because the burglary was your fault. But rape victims have repeatedly been let down by juries who refuse to convict women who "were asking for it". We correctly tell mugging victims that getting a full wallet out in the grimmest part of town after dark was a bit silly, but the CPS doesn't drop charges because it was their own fault. THAT is what is different about rape.

The only part of the "rape culture" that still exists is the legal grey area of "Version of events"

Ofcourse it's also not been helped by the "horror" stories you see where a man was accused wrongly.

It's a very difficult thing to preside over I hope I'm never on a jury that has to deal with a rape offence that isn't a clear cut case of rape.
 
I'm sorry, and your evidence for this is?

Buff

I think he means the way the defence are allowed to attack the victim and dissect her life making her feel more worthless than she did already and then get the accused off based on his version of events sounding more accurate than a hysterical and psychologically wounded girl.

Can you imagine how being told when you have reported a horrible and disturbing event that happened to you. That you asked for it you were flirting with him you gave him the wrong signals it's not his fault you didn't put out like you suggested you would blah blah.

Half the reason many women don't come forward is because they already feel dirty enough and they worry that society will view them as "damaged goods" and they also worry that if it doesn't get prosecuted they'll be viewed as a lying whore. None of this is acceptable but how we rectify it in The binge drinking partying highly sexualised society we live in I do not know.
 
Anything in the last couple of decades in the uk, where the judge has blamed the girl and let the "rapist" off?

Isn't low conviction rate, purly down to how well grounded are legal system is. Ie you need. Evidence and in most cases there's is a sever lack of evidence it's a he says she said moment. I can't see how you can get around that with out breaking the legal system and I think this is why little has changed. However protection for false claims is far easier to change without braking the legal system(as wel as murders etc, protect people like Chris Jeffries).
 
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