Joel, Jim & Jassim - Utd Ownership

[adam cool dude]

He had people helping him and football was a far far far simpler business back then. Especially as the United manager.

Lets be real it was his obsession in almost an unhealthy way when you look at it deeply. Not many people are prepared to go that far but to be super successful you need to be. Not many people I can think of were similar.

Football hasn't changed that much in the ten years since he retired. Gil has a lot to account with it too. I know it wasn't all him.

 

[shipinabottle]

Lets be real it was his obsession in almost an unhealthy way when you look at it deeply. Not many people are prepared to go that far but to be super successful you need to be. Not many people I can think of were similar.

Football hasn't changed that much in the ten years since he retired. Gil has a lot to account with it too. I know it wasn't all him.

Hmmm I think you have SAF on a pedestal as some god, he was far from it... He is a great for the accolades of that united team but they were a product of much more than just SAF. Talent, opportunity, investment, buying power, influence and lack of league competition.

Football has vastly changed compared to his days, the investment, talent pool and ability of other clubs is far more competitive.

United of SAF were like the Man City of now without the competition. Squad depth, talented manager and the resources to keep it up. But Pep is a far better coach.

SAF was not a confident coach going toe to toe with the best either, and would go defensive against European teams he was scared would outplay them and they did.

I'd rate Pep far over SAF IMO, he's redefined modern football.

 

[fez]

Hmmm I think you have SAF on a pedestal as some god, he was far from it... He is a great for the accolades of that united team but they were a product of much more than just SAF. Talent, opportunity, investment, buying power, influence and lack of league competition.

Football has vastly changed compared to his days, the investment, talent pool and ability of other clubs is far more competitive.

United of SAF were like the Man City of now without the competition. Squad depth, talented manager and the resources to keep it up. But Pep is a far better coach.

SAF was not a confident coach going toe to toe with the best either, and would go defensive against European teams he was scared would outplay them and they did.

I'd rate Pep far over SAF IMO, he's redefined modern football.

I would tend to agree with this. By the end of Fergies reign United were very much on their last legs and City were nowhere near the standards they currently are at. Fergie was fantastic at what he did but for a long time at United he was a big fish in a pretty small pond and as you say, in Europe he was fantastically cautious against anyone half decent.

 

[C Kent]

a lot of fergies success, especially in the later years was due to the assistant coaches/managers he brought in.

 

[Bigpig]

a lot of fergies success, especially in the later years was due to the assistant coaches/managers he brought in.

Loads of money helps.

 

[fez]

Loads of money helps.

Not really. United under Ferguson were not spending loads of money all the time. We used a lot of academy products. United had the advantage after a certain point that they were the biggest club in the league so things were just easier for us.

Between 92 and when he retired we were only the biggest spending club in the league three times. Same as Newcastle it turns out..

a lot of fergies success, especially in the later years was due to the assistant coaches/managers he brought in.

Fergie was very good at doing what was necessary. Bringing in the right players to get over the line. Motivating them and getting the right people in to coaching roles as football changed around him. For a number of years we were pretty poor to watch but very effective and years of winning had instilled a never give up mentality in to us. We would win the league by beating the minnow routinely, not necessarily dominating the other big teams.

 

[Reuben klang]

He had people helping him and football was a far far far simpler business back then. Especially as the United manager.

It was a decade ago, hardly 100 years ago.

 

[fez]

It was a decade ago, hardly 100 years ago.

Towards the end of his time at United, Ferguson was having to deal with a buoyant City and for 5 or so years he had been competing largely with Chelsea. Outside of that Arsenal were decent, Liverpool were OK and Spurs were Spurs. Every other team in the league was an irrelevance. The amount of money in the league compared to now was tiny. Smaller clubs sold to the bigger clubs because they didn't have a choice. Scouting wasn't a data driven game like it is now. The standard model of how a well run football club looked wasn't anything like it is now for most clubs. In the league he wasn't worrying about 6 other teams fighting for top 4, he was worried about one other team, perhaps 2 fighting for the title. The points needed to win the league has generally gone up over the last 10 years.

So yes, things have changed massively over the past 10 years.

 

[engee]

I agree

However its interesting that you mention about the amount of points needed to win the title has gone up. You would think more points at the top means a less competitive league. But its largely viewed as more competitive from top to bottom than ever.

 

[fez]

I agree

However its interesting that you mention about the amount of points needed to win the title has gone up. You would think more points at the top means a less competitive league. But its largely viewed as more competitive from top to bottom than ever.

Yeah, its hard to rationalise but the quality of the City/Liverpool sides was just astonishing for a couple of years there. I would say that the overall quality is better since then though. Lets say top half of the league. And more and more clubs are getting into the realms of being able to beat anyone on their day and do it on merit rather than a freak result.

 

[adam cool dude]

Hmmm I think you have SAF on a pedestal as some god, he was far from it... He is a great for the accolades of that united team but they were a product of much more than just SAF. Talent, opportunity, investment, buying power, influence and lack of league competition.

Football has vastly changed compared to his days, the investment, talent pool and ability of other clubs is far more competitive.

United of SAF were like the Man City of now without the competition. Squad depth, talented manager and the resources to keep it up. But Pep is a far better coach.

SAF was not a confident coach going toe to toe with the best either, and would go defensive against European teams he was scared would outplay them and they did.

I'd rate Pep far over SAF IMO, he's redefined modern football.

Pep redefined what exactly? He is a chequebook manager who got to have the best player in the world during his prime. Won nothing of note in a dominant German side and cheated his way to the treble. His whole gameplay ideas are all based on Dutch total football.

Fergie was a manager and pep is a coach. Massive difference.

Fergie has Aberdeen and United on his C.V. Before and after. Pep cannot match that and never will. He would need to go to a team like Everton and turn them into world beaters for that kind of comparable legacy.

Everyone else had the opportunity to do what Fergie did in the 90's but they didn't but because they were so poor and couldn't keep up with him it is more that the league wasn't competitive rather than Fergie and his team at the club were just magnitudes better than everyone else.

 

[Reuben klang]

Towards the end of his time at United, Ferguson was having to deal with a buoyant City and for 5 or so years he had been competing largely with Chelsea. Outside of that Arsenal were decent, Liverpool were OK and Spurs were Spurs. Every other team in the league was an irrelevance. The amount of money in the league compared to now was tiny. Smaller clubs sold to the bigger clubs because they didn't have a choice. Scouting wasn't a data driven game like it is now. The standard model of how a well run football club looked wasn't anything like it is now for most clubs. In the league he wasn't worrying about 6 other teams fighting for top 4, he was worried about one other team, perhaps 2 fighting for the title. The points needed to win the league has generally gone up over the last 10 years.

So yes, things have changed massively over the past 10 years.

He was still going toe to toe with them, won the league then lost on GD then stormed the league IIRC

Fergie was able to delegated perfectly as well so would have got the right data guys in or whatever was needed one thing for use about Fergie was he was able to adapt and move on with the game something a lot of other really struggle with. Even wider off field issues such as social media, I don’t recall him having an issue with that so generally he was good right across the board.

Pep redefined what exactly? He is a chequebook manager who got to have the best player in the world during his prime. Won nothing of note in a dominant German side and cheated his way to the treble. His whole gameplay ideas are all based on Dutch total football.

Fergie was a manager and pep is a coach. Massive difference.

Fergie has Aberdeen and United on his C.V. Before and after. Pep cannot match that and never will. He would need to go to a team like Everton and turn them into world beaters for that kind of comparable legacy.

Everyone else had the opportunity to do what Fergie did in the 90's but they didn't but because they were so poor and couldn't keep up with him it is more that the league wasn't competitive rather than Fergie and his team at the club were just magnitudes better than everyone else.

Very very harsh on Pep, he’s getting the best out these players and has built a teams that’s dominated English football like no other. 100 points, domestic treble, away to win 4 leagues in a row as well. Only thing missing is unbeatable - which they basically are anyway over 38 games. Sure you can say the club has cheated but he hasn’t - I’m still in the camp that if you have the money you should be allowed to spend it how you want.

I do get what you‘re meaning with Aberdeen and United, however Pep at this moment in time doesn’t need to do that it’s beneath him if you will. There is no chance he’s going to go to an Everton or Spurs. No chance. Why would he? It’s basically the same as a massively in demand player then saying oh he didn’t do it a Stoke on a cold rainy Tuesday night.

There maybe come a time (I think he’ll just retire myself) where Pep is no long the main man and his stock falls and he has to start taking 2nd tier teams - likewise the same with Jose at the moment. The difficulty is now is you can not longer go to a Spurs/Everton and build a dynasty because not only do you get your best players signed from under you, you’re losing your staff, your data guys (like above), heck even as far as DOFs are now getting cherry picked - see Dan Ashworth.

 

[gingergundog]

Hmmm I think you have SAF on a pedestal as some god, he was far from it... He is a great for the accolades of that united team but they were a product of much more than just SAF. Talent, opportunity, investment, buying power, influence and lack of league competition.

Football has vastly changed compared to his days, the investment, talent pool and ability of other clubs is far more competitive.

United of SAF were like the Man City of now without the competition. Squad depth, talented manager and the resources to keep it up. But Pep is a far better coach.

SAF was not a confident coach going toe to toe with the best either, and would go defensive against European teams he was scared would outplay them and they did.

I'd rate Pep far over SAF IMO, he's redefined modern football.

SAF is obviously not a god but he has achieved more than Pep has. Lack of league competiton? Its not like they ran away with it every season, plus Blackburn won it in 95. You have Arsenal winning it plus Chelsea

You cant even compare SAF's United to City. United have had plenty of competition.

Not sure you can criticise him in Europe, Id agree there should have been more trophies but 2 CL and 4 finals plus the CWC in 91.

Pep had it on easy mode when at Barcelona, stagnated at Bayern then had an unlimited money cheat with Man City but everyone knows that.

Maybe Pep should have a go winning a European trophy with an Aberdeen level team.

 

[dannyjo22]

Pep redefined what exactly? He is a chequebook manager who got to have the best player in the world during his prime. Won nothing of note in a dominant German side and cheated his way to the treble. His whole gameplay ideas are all based on Dutch total football.

Fergie was a manager and pep is a coach. Massive difference.

Fergie has Aberdeen and United on his C.V. Before and after. Pep cannot match that and never will. He would need to go to a team like Everton and turn them into world beaters for that kind of comparable legacy.

Everyone else had the opportunity to do what Fergie did in the 90's but they didn't but because they were so poor and couldn't keep up with him it is more that the league wasn't competitive rather than Fergie and his team at the club were just magnitudes better than everyone else.

I love Fergie, I think his man management was second to none but he went to Manu, not Everton. The biggest club in the country with Liverpool. Pep going to Everton is nothing like the same, neither would be going to Aberdeen now. As for money spent, yes City have spent a lot of get where they are but United spent more than City have on players to keep that core from 92 going. Look at the money they spent on players corrected for todays spend. It's not like united did it on a shoe string budget like Leicester did. I just heard Rio Ferdinand correct for todays money was just shy of 200m. That's double what City have spent on anyone. They were mocked when they spent 50m on a defender a few years ago. Do that for every one of the players United gouged out of other clubs with money and it looks worse than the figures City spent on players.

With FFP of today Fergie likely couldn't have got anywhere near the spending advantage he had in the 90's and 00's. He got there with a bunch of top quality kids that he had no part in developing and maintained it with huge wages and transfers.

 

[Sythe79]

I love Fergie, I think his man management was second to none but he went to Manu, not Everton. The biggest club in the country with Liverpool. Pep going to Everton is nothing like the same, neither would be going to Aberdeen now. As for money spent, yes City have spent a lot of get where they are but United spent more than City have on players to keep that core from 92 going. Look at the money they spent on players corrected for todays spend. It's not like united did it on a shoe string budget like Leicester did. I just heard Rio Ferdinand correct for todays money was just shy of 200m. That's double what City have spent on anyone. They were mocked when they spent 50m on a defender a few years ago. Do that for every one of the players United gouged out of other clubs with money and it looks worse than the figures City spent on players.

With FFP of today Fergie likely couldn't have got anywhere near the spending advantage he had in the 90's and 00's. He got there with a bunch of top quality kids that he had no part in developing and maintained it with huge wages and transfers.

As much as I hate united and feel like I've defended them twice in two days, FFP wouldn't have been a factor for anybody bar Blackburn back in the 90s they simply made more money than everybody in the league by multiples, building a massive stadium while everyone else was reducing their capacity was a much bigger factor back then when match day revenue was a much larger percentage of income.

FFP doesn't stop you spending money you have.

 

[adam cool dude]

I love Fergie, I think his man management was second to none but he went to Manu, not Everton. The biggest club in the country with Liverpool. Pep going to Everton is nothing like the same, neither would be going to Aberdeen now. As for money spent, yes City have spent a lot of get where they are but United spent more than City have on players to keep that core from 92 going. Look at the money they spent on players corrected for todays spend. It's not like united did it on a shoe string budget like Leicester did. I just heard Rio Ferdinand correct for todays money was just shy of 200m. That's double what City have spent on anyone. They were mocked when they spent 50m on a defender a few years ago. Do that for every one of the players United gouged out of other clubs with money and it looks worse than the figures City spent on players.

With FFP of today Fergie likely couldn't have got anywhere near the spending advantage he had in the 90's and 00's. He got there with a bunch of top quality kids that he had no part in developing and maintained it with huge wages and transfers.

It really is as Everton are just like United were in the 80's. A fallen giant on hard times.

The core at Everton is really bright. New owners coming and a brand new stadium coming in. The old owner has put plenty of money in but it has been all done poorly. Much like United but on a smaller scale. Guardiola should be able to quite easily go in there and turn things around like Fergie did. Overhaul the scouting network, youth etc which I believe doesn't count against FFP?

Everton's new owners are the 7th richest in the league. I am sure they can do some fake FFP jiggery and get the money flowing in quite quickly.

Then again Pep has no reason to do this as he is already well established but I for one would really like to see it but to me Pep is a coach and not a manager which is why he would struggle in that situation.

 

[div0]

Surely this thread title is due an update "Joel, Jim and not Jassim"?

Comparing players or managers across generations is easy to debate, but impossible to resolve. Would Fergie have been so successful managing modern ego's and dealing with social media? Would Pep have been able to unseat peak Man U, coaching another team who didn't have quite as much financial power.

 

[Deleted member 266365]

a lot of fergies success, especially in the later years was due to the assistant coaches/managers he brought in.

It is called leadership. If you are the leader you get the right people under you. A leader should not be doing everything, they have to delegate to people that they trust.

 

[dannyjo22]

It really is as Everton are just like United were in the 80's. A fallen giant on hard times.

The core at Everton is really bright. New owners coming and a brand new stadium coming in. The old owner has put plenty of money in but it has been all done poorly. Much like United but on a smaller scale. Guardiola should be able to quite easily go in there and turn things around like Fergie did. Overhaul the scouting network, youth etc which I believe doesn't count against FFP?

You either are not old enough to remember Man United in the 80's or you only remember the premiership. It's nothing like the same. In the 80's United where the still the biggest club in the league. Everton have never been the biggest club in the league, ever. Or even remotely close. Prior to Fergie, Uniteds last 5 league finishes: 4,4,4,3,3,8,2. All bar one of those years would be a champions league finish by todays placings, they also won the FA cup in 83 and 85. They were still one of the richest clubs in the league. So that's a million miles away from the equivalent of pep taking over Everton. It would be the same as Pep taking over a consistent top 4 finisher with loads of money and developing a decent youth academy.

Since 1988 Everton have finished in the top 4 once. What Fergie did at United is nothing like Pep being able to take Everton to the title. Fergie couldn't have taken Everton to the title and neither could Pep.

 

[Benaforce]

Apparently Ineos have opened talks with a Golf Club, its literally next door to me:

Man United identify golf courses as potential new training ground

MIKE KEEGAN: Mail Sport understands that club officials - wary of space limitations at the Premier League giants' current base - have focused on courses in the South Manchester area

www.dailymail.co.uk

This has come out in the village and they are up in arms about it already.

Its a quiet little Cheshire countryside and the concerns are it will bring all sorts to the area. The area is already very afluent or mostly pensioners, so the argument of it bringing employment to the area is a null point.