John Terry Racism Trial

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i don't think that's the question. the question should be, is this the behaviour one should expect from a club and country captain?

Of course it isn't.

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that John Terry is a tool, but I'm not convinced he's a racist.

In the heat of the moment, certainly when it comes to people of lesser intelligence, they may say the sort of things that he did. That doesn't necessarily mean he dislikes black people.

Haven't we been over this already? He could make 1000 comments and still not be racist. If he believes that one race is superior or inferior then he's a racist. Make racially offensive remarks don't necessarily make you racist though.

I know, I was just making sure cm1179 was aware of that.
 
Unfortunately, you're wrong on many accounts. I'm not defending him on any of those things. I've said nothing about them. You can try to obscure the point I'm making as much as you like.

I'm calling you out on one thing - that you made a nasty accusation about two people, and don't have any proof to back it up.

Once again - you make a statement (the racist he is) and seem to think this makes it a fact. It's an opinion - It's your opinion (and you know what they say about opinions - everyone has one) but that's all it is.

so you're agreeing with me then. it is about opinions, as i said from the very outset and why i have my opinion on him and put myself under the ''we know what john terry is'' umbrella. it's not about obscuring anything, it's telling why i think the bloke is a bit of a scummer. i've always said he was a good footballer. being a club and country captain, simply being a good footballer doesn't cut it.
 
Of course it isn't.

I don't think anyone is disputing the fact that John Terry is a tool, but I'm not convinced he's a racist.

In the heat of the moment, certainly when it comes to people of lesser intelligence, they may say the sort of things that he did. That doesn't necessarily mean he dislikes black people.



I know, I was just making sure cm1179 was aware of that.

there's a few who would disagree on the tool thing.

and you and BAZ87 aren't on the same page. there's a world apart of saying something in the heat of the moment and someone saying something 1000 times.
 
so you're agreeing with me then. it is about opinions, as i said from the very outset and why i have my opinion on him and put myself under the ''we know what john terry is'' umbrella.

You didn't just claim it to be your opinion though. You claimed that everybody other than Chelsea fans "knows what he is".
 
there's a few who would disagree on the tool thing.

Who (on here)?

and you and BAZ87 aren't on the same page. there's a world apart of saying something in the heat of the moment and someone saying something 1000 times.

I think the '1000 times' thing would be excessive, that would be repeated racial abuse and you'd inevitably be seen a racist in that instance, but I understand his underlying point.
 
You still seem to be having difficulty with the concept.
I'm not agreeing with you at all.
I'm not even debating anything else about John Terry.

In post 181 of this thread you said this:


All I've asked since then is that you back up your statement that this allegation turned out to be true.

That's it. Nothing else. Your average response has been:

"I don't have to back anything up"

I'm not particularly bothered about your opinion(s). They mean little to me.
But making a statement of fact in public on something you can't possibly know the truth of does.
 
Would you like to back up your claim that "everyone else knows what John Terry is"?

You won't get an answer because he's not a mind reader. Just substitute "everyone else knows" by "I know" and you see where he’s coming from.
 
BAZ87 for one by the looks of it

This is getting very similar to the Carroll's been offered to Spurs on loan debate. Just like when I said that I didn't believe Carroll had been offered on loan to Spurs, it didn't mean that I don't believe that Liverpool are looking to sell Carroll - when I rubbish your ridiculous claims and/or make general points on racism & racists, it doesn't mean I'm defending Terry or that I don't think he's a ****.

To be clear, generally speaking I think Terry's a ****, I don't believe his excuse in this affair however I don't think he's a racist.
 
To be clear, generally speaking I think Terry's a ****, I don't believe his excuse in this affair however I don't think he's a racist.

i doubt very much he's got hitler memorabilia and KKK stuff in his basement and it's more a case of him being a bit thick, heat of the moment in what he said but that doesn't excuse the fact. this is different to the suarez case as there's no ''lost in translation'' angle. what i can't understand, is the difference in the time it took to go to court.

the position of responsibility he has was probably a factor in this and makes him a role model and is one of the reasons he is paid so much and imo there really is no excuse for him to forget this.
 
The Suarez vs Evra case was different, Evra made a direct accusation and gave a consistent account of what was said, Suarez account was inconsistent and on the basis of what is more likely the FA panel chose to believe Evra.

With Terry, Ferdinand nor any other player is making any accusation or making any claims as to what Terry said. The video as posted on Youtube is incomplete and out of context. Terry may or may not be a lying toe-rag, but where is the rest of the video or witness account to give the whole context and contradict Terry's account?

Without a counter claim to contradict Terry, how can the case be decided by the FA panel according to what is more likely? As the evidence stands, it's just a pure guess. How can that be right?

We're assuming he will be found guilty of course, but it is possible that the FA are going to go through the motions and reach the conclusion that there is nothing to contradict Terry and therefore not punish him, and publish the result of their enquiry as they did with the Suarez case. However if the FA do nothing then they will probably be crucified for showing bias and ignoring possible racist behaviour.

None of this post is entirely true, but I believe it contain some pearls that the press have reported incorrectly and what has become the accepted narrative of the Suarez and Terry cases.

1) Evra made several allegations, none of which were consistent with one another. From his first "He called me a ****** 10 times" to once - "he pinched my skin and said he doesn't talk to ******s". His account was taken as "consistent" and "reliable" by the FA as he was able, under cross examination to recount events consistently with his last statement, not his initial accusation. Suarez on the other hand, who speaks very little English, naturally found it difficult to answer questions on cross examination about how his actions were "conciliatory" as his statement said and was thus deemed an "unreliable" witness. Consistency and reliability in this context has very little to do with who or what they believed happened, but what evidence each gave that was helpful with reaching a conclusion compatible with the FA's rulebook. Evra's evidence was simple. Saurez's depended on context and linguistic nuance.

2) Suarez was not found guilty of racism, racist abuse, or any other criminality. He was found guilty of "using abusive and / or insulting language whilst making reference to skin colour". Now you could argue that this is point based purely in semantics, but it isn't. The fact is that the FA standards, both in terms of the burden of proof AND in terms of action are different from the legal standard in British Law.

Those given retrospective bans for violent behaviour are not subject to the same rigours as those tried for common assault. Yet they are sometimes almost identical in nature. Protagonists aren't subjected to the full force of the law as it's rarely in the public interest. Instead, a few fellas sit round and watch some TV footage and hand out a ban. Suarez wasn't convicted of being racist anymore than those banned for violent behavior are convicted of common assault. Despite what the press wrote. It's internal to the FA's jurisdiction and entirely specific to football and the FAs rulebook.

In my opinion, the CPS could not have prosecuted Suarez for racist abuse because, other than one mans word, there's no evidence of it. That's despite their being 30 high def TV cameras zoomed into a dead ball situation, a flashpoint where surely most of them were right on Suarez and it taking place inside the goal mouth where there are several microphones present. A more closely monitored stage is difficult to imagine.

Yet the FA chose that on the balance of probabilities Suarez broke their own rules. NOT the law. Their own rules.

As such, Terry's court case has very little to do with the FA's charge. He's not been charged with being racist. He's been charged with using abusive and/or insulting language with reference to skin colour. There is far more damning evidence of him doing so than there is of Suarez.

The big question is do they allow Terry use context as the basis for a successful defence? They didn't allow Suarez to do so. I think Terry would have struggled to argue in a court of law that under the balance of probabilities, his outburst was a sarcastic retort. I see how that forms a reasonable doubt, but more likely than him just being generally offensive and not caring what he said at that moment in time? Unlikely.
 
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