Joker (2019)
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Soldato
I am looking forward to Joker but a standing ovation for 8 mins? Normal cinema goers don't do that.
Some older Batman fans like me are less impressed because they already did a fantastic and legendary Joker origin story called The Killing Joke written and drawn by two of the greatest comic book writers and artists that ever lived in Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons (Edit: got mixed up with Watchmen, art actually was Brian Bolland, who has a highly similar style to Gibbons but in some ways even better,) both Brits as well.
That, along with Year One and the Dark Knight Returns are, in my opinion, legitimately a lot better than any of the Batman movies including the Nolan ones, the third of which was a bit of an overblown mess in my opinion, though I did like the Dark Knight a lot.
Alan Moore and Frank Miller remain far better writers of Batman than anyone who's written for the character in movies, in my opinion.
Phoenix could pull this off because he a good enough actor, I'm not convinced by some of the plot elements though I'll give it a shot.
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Of course not and I feel like there will be a lot of band wagon jumping here from those who initially dismissed this and will suddenly be in love with it.
Film Festival goers aren't 'normal' people. They have a massive tendency to overreact as well, you always see talk of "mass walkouts" and "standing ovations". It's all about the hype train..
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Am intrigued by this, especially after the critical response. The Joker is such an iconic character there is no definitive joker, just like there never really will be a universal origins story for the character. I like to think of this as more of a one possible take, at one particular time on where the character could have come from. Having this story won't diminish my enjoyment of all of the other takes of joker I have had over the years. Actually it is somewhat refreshing to think of the Joker as a constantly transitioning character who is a partial reflection of an ever changing society. I do believe this version is set in the 80s though?
Soldato
The only common theme is that the Joker, to quote TDK, is an "agent of chaos" so as long as an actor, whoever they are, can bring their version of what that means to the screen it should be worth watching.
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Older Batman fans like yourself should at least be intrigued by this film, bearing in mind Todd Philips said his inspirations are The Killing Joke and The Man Who Laughs - which Jerry Robinson and Bill Finger both referenced as their inspiration for the original Joker. Those older Batman fans should also remember that Killing Joke is a Joker origin story, not the Joker origin story
- there's at least 6 published, and the Joker has even said he considers his origin "multiple choice".Alan Moore wrote one truly great Batman story. And I love Year One and DKR, but the rest of Miller's stuff is average at best - if you really want to scrape the barrel, read Holy Terror and remember that was originally going to be Holy War, Batman! (but don't really read it, it is truly awful).
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Yep. Exactly as I thought it'd be:
It's got sod all to do with DC Comics other than using the name and name dropping Easter Eggs here and there. If we strip those away, it'll stand on its own. So in my view still, it's NOT a (DC) Joker movie. Just using DC Comics fandom to push itself for more viewers. Critics will "love" it because of its "psychological" "art" and want to dump Oscars, Emmys and Awards on it, and that's exactly what is happening.
Interest still at zero, because it's not a DC Joker movie. Just a movie using the name (and associated property names) and hoping to ride the fandom towards glory.
It's got sod all to do with DC Comics other than using the name and name dropping Easter Eggs here and there. If we strip those away, it'll stand on its own. So in my view still, it's NOT a (DC) Joker movie. Just using DC Comics fandom to push itself for more viewers. Critics will "love" it because of its "psychological" "art" and want to dump Oscars, Emmys and Awards on it, and that's exactly what is happening.
Interest still at zero, because it's not a DC Joker movie. Just a movie using the name (and associated property names) and hoping to ride the fandom towards glory.
Older Batman fans like yourself should at least be intrigued by this film, bearing in mind Todd Philips said his inspirations are The Killing Joke and The Man Who Laughs - which Jerry Robinson and Bill Finger both referenced as their inspiration for the original Joker. Those older Batman fans should also remember that Killing Joke is a Joker origin story, not the Joker origin story
Alan Moore wrote one truly great Batman story. And I love Year One and DKR, but the rest of Miller's stuff is average at best - if you really want to scrape the barrel, read Holy Terror and remember that was originally going to be Holy War, Batman! (but don't really read it, it is truly awful).
Well, definitely some good points respectfully put, and it's fair to say I am somewhat out of the loop with modern comics, my gold standard absolutely is Alan Moore and Frank Miller from the 80's. Also Gaiman in the late 80's early 90s. Swamp Thing, Watchmen, Ronin, Daredevil, Elektra, Batman, Violent Cases, Poison Ivy, Sandman, etc.
Yes, fair point about other Joker origin stories, but we both know which one is the most critically acclaimed and constantly referred to as the 'best' origin, that's The Killing Joke. In 28 pages or so Moore wrote a better Batman and Joker story than others have done with hundreds, even thousands of pages, he may have not put much out for the character but he did it better than hundreds of other writers have. Did he also do some Batman 66' stuff too? Way after my comic buying years.
As for Miller, again, I'm out of the loop with his modern stuff, I admittedly do put most of his 80's stuff on a pedestal, but the last book of his I read was Give Me Liberty which with Dave Gibbons doing the art I thought would be one of my favourite ever comics, but I didn't like it, at all in fact, so Miller probably did peak in the 80 and trailed off a bit. Writers like anyone else have the prime years.
He can take influence from Killing Joke which is good, but it doesn't mean he truly understands the source material. I always felt the strongest point of the Killing Joke was how normal the Joker was before he becomes the Joker, the entire theme is how Batman and Joker are part of the same deck of cards. In this new movie we see Joker washing his old mother in the bath, bothering kid's parents on the bus, both typical 'weirdo' or 'loser' traits I don't think were present in the Killing Joke. In the Killing Joke he's a fairly well adjusted, albeit failure of a stand up comic with a beautiful wife and a baby on the way.
Either way, we're at least partially on the same page, I'd rather it be good than bad, and I trust in Phoenix to give absolutely everything he's got.
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So this has just won the Golden Lion at Venice.
Soldato
Ever been to the cinema in the US? It's nothing but constant whooping, cheering and clapping throughout the entire damn movie. Even worse at the end as you clamber over the mountain of discarded food packing and other detritus to make a quick getaway. Assuming that the designated shooter hasn't tagged you and you can still walk that is.
Wow... all about the hype train. That's made me really curious.
Soldato
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7286456/ 9.6/10 from 10,383 ratings. I know it's IMDB etc but this is a good sign surely
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I assume not all of those people have seen the movie, so it's a bit meaningless really. It's really just a reflection of how the public are expecting this to turn out, similarly to Captain Marvel with Rotten Tomatoes, although I hope the public are more correct this time!
Yeah, when you delve further into the imdb stats, it's clearly a lot of pre-viewing voting going on.
10,383 votes, 9228 of those (88.9%) all giving a 10/10. I can't imagine it's had that many viewers on the festival circuit alone and doubt most "hip" festival goers really would care that much about jumping onto IMDB to give a rating.
Don't get me wrong, i'd love for all those votes to be legit and I believe this will be excellent but i'd put money on it that the rating drops quite a bit on general release.
10,383 votes, 9228 of those (88.9%) all giving a 10/10. I can't imagine it's had that many viewers on the festival circuit alone and doubt most "hip" festival goers really would care that much about jumping onto IMDB to give a rating.
Don't get me wrong, i'd love for all those votes to be legit and I believe this will be excellent but i'd put money on it that the rating drops quite a bit on general release.
Soldato
So what is a DC Joker film?
The best Joker stuff is psychological, he's never been a stand and bang villain at least certainly not in a long while. He's a lot More about messing with the bat and the city.
Soldato
Some film reviewer on the radio said it's the best movie he's seen in the last 20 years and that it's VERY dark.
Rotten Tomatoes only gave it 77% though.
Rotten Tomatoes only gave it 77% though.