Junior doctor strike: Union's pay demands unrealistic, says Steve Barclay

[Mrwong]

We had 2 years of blowing smoke up their behinds in the name of covid

Stay home, protect the nhs, bang your pans for the nhs, shop discounts and nhs only opening hours

Whilst many did a fine job there were a lot that hid. From experience it became impossible to get to see a doctor, everything bar covid was kicked into the long grass

My MIL is still awaiting a hip op over a year down the line from it was supposed to happen

Public backing for these strikes is probably at an all time low

It was more about protecting the institution rather than what the institution does.
To disguise the failures of a broken health care system, and the impact of selling real estate over the last 30 years, and to top it off selling below market rate.

 

[ci_newman]

A payrise for me is an increase above inflation.

You know, its bloody annoying when you edit your post after someone has already replied to it.

 

[Minstadave]

I imagine Steve Barclay is going to have an extra headache when the nursing / AfC offer is rejected at the back of end of this week too.

Yup. The AfC offer is weak.

Interesting how the argument is "some JDs will get a 20k payrise and that's too much" but the Government were more than happy to let inflation whittle away that 20k.

 

[Minstadave]

And they are only too willing to use patients as pawns in their political shenanigans to show their abhorrence of the right. I have never known a previous time where GP's were condemned so vociferously for their lack of availability. Public support for the medical profession in general must be wavering already without junior doctors showing them contempt.

Junior doctors are the ones soaking up all the stuff that can't be seen in Primary Care through the rocketing ED attendances.

 

[Goodie]

I also think the title ‘Junior Doctor’ doesn’t really do the role justice. I’d imagine general population would view it as a year or two out of medical school, which it most definitely is not.

 

[Minstadave]

I also think the title ‘Junior Doctor’ doesn’t really do the role justice. I’d imagine general population would view it as a year or two out of medical school, which it most definitely is not.

Absolutely. It crept in a good few years ago. What was a Registrar, which many people understood was a senior role, was lumped in under the Junior Doctor umbrella. Then even more stupidly around 2016 some JDs were meant to be designated "Senior Decision Makers" which added to the confusion (this was just the old Registrar level under a new name).

Medical educational has moved to infantilise doctors more and more over the years and its not had any positive effect that I can see.

 

[Chris Wilson]

Junior doctors are the ones soaking up all the stuff that can't be seen in Primary Care through the rocketing ED attendances.

So at whose door do you lay the blame for the fact the average family has suddenly, post the Chinese virus, found their GP is "unavailable"? What action, apart from going on strike, are you taking about it?

 

[Minstadave]

So at whose door do you lay the blame for the fact the average family has suddenly, post the Chinese virus, found their GP is "unavailable"? What action are you taking about it?

The Government doesn't adequately fund or resource any aspect of the NHS and for many reasons working harder in the NHS in Primary and Secondary care isn't rewarded. This has lead to increasing retirement and less entry to junior posts.

There's too many short term fixes. Consultants are being paid substantial amounts to cover the JD strikes nationally and this money would be better just given to the JDs.

There are far too many short term fixes applied when long term planning is needed. Partly because of the NHS being used as a political football and partly because a cheap bodge is always preferred at management level.

I'm by no means an expert in primary care but there's some good info here:

Pressures in general practice data analysis

We monitor data on GP workforce, working patterns and appointment numbers to help build a picture of the level of strain GP practices in England are under.

www.bma.org.uk

Partners are dying out (far too much hassle), more being driven to part time, less overall GPs out there and more demand and actually more appointments being carried out but by fewer people.

 

[Mrwong]

£75k per year is more than twice the national average salary so it is fairly safe to say that is a lot.

Not really, if the vast amount of the population wages over 20 years have grown below inflation, then at glance it would seem a lot. Lets say inflation over 20 years is at 5%, lets say the majority of the population have only 2% per year and the minority have had 5% per year increase every year.
Example lets say both two people start a job both on equal pay grades A which is worth £20000. They stay with in same pay grade category for 20 years.
Both start with £20000
A inflation is worked out at 2% 20 years later £29,826.56
B inflation is worked out at 5% 20 years £54,252.81

When one small group always goes on strike it is easy to get that link, what has happened with TFL train drivers.
If the others are to scared to go on strike then they will not. Eventually the majority will, but will have to accept a lower inflation for all. The government can play them against each other.

 

[tres]

I have never known a previous time where GP's were condemned so vociferously for their lack of availability. Public support for the medical profession in general must be wavering already without junior doctors showing them contempt.

GPs are seeing more patients than ever, with fewer GPs than ever. It's a shame the general public are so easily mislead by certain media sources.
As for overall lack of availability, GPs aren't to blame; several decades of under investment, an aging comorvid population, and overall sense of entitlement have far outstripped available resources.

 

[Uther]

Depends on the level of wealth, if your the average middle income earner, while you are in work you have company health insurance. Once they retire and do not have access to company insurance polices it becomes very expensive and/or possible not going to get insured, they too will face issues.
Only those with extreme wealth will be able to afford private care in their later years. Many in this country do not understand this logic flow.

The American dream. I'm sure a lot of people just assume this will all get magically better. It won't.

 

[Minstadave]

GPs are seeing more patients than ever, with fewer GPs than ever. It's a shame the general public are so easily mislead by certain media sources.
As for overall lack of availability, GPs aren't to blame; several decades of under investment, an aging comorvid population, and overall sense of entitlement have far outstripped available resources.

Yeah the BMA numbers are striking:

Pressures in general practice data analysis

We monitor data on GP workforce, working patterns and appointment numbers to help build a picture of the level of strain GP practices in England are under.

www.bma.org.uk

My wife is just about to return to Primary Care after a long break because she was broken. I'm not hopeful it'll go well.

 

[Uther]

Tbh if I was a 'junior' doctor I'd have been looking for the exit some time ago. A lot of countries appreciate them more, with better salaries and a much better quality of life.

 

[Minstadave]

GPs are seeing more patients than ever, with fewer GPs than ever. It's a shame the general public are so easily mislead by certain media sources.
As for overall lack of availability, GPs aren't to blame; several decades of under investment, an aging comorvid population, and overall sense of entitlement have far outstripped available resources.

I don't think the allied practitioners in Primary Care are the solution to lack of GPs either. We get referrals from Pharmacists/Trainee Paramedics etc when what is needed is more GPs.

 

[Minstadave]

Tbh if I was a 'junior' doctor I'd have been looking for the exit some time ago. A lot of countries appreciate them more, with better salaries and a much better quality of life.

Very true, the rise in FY3 years shows that JDs are more hesitant to commit to UK training. I've looked this year and my pay is 2-3 times more in Australia or the Middle-East.

 

[Buddy]

Just to add. NHS England have no solution for managing capacity because the of decade of inaction and lack of investment.

The new unilateral GP contract just came out. Nothing about capacity. They want targets to focus on access. It doesn't matter how much access you have if you don't have enough doctors or health care staff at the other end to book patients into.

Laughably, one target is "reduce burnout' , with a monetary fund attached to it.

Yes, you read that right.

 

[Chris Wilson]

The Government doesn't adequately fund or resource any aspect of the NHS and for many reasons working harder in the NHS in Primary and Secondary care isn't rewarded. This has lead to increasing retirement and less entry to junior posts.

There's too many short term fixes. Consultants are being paid substantial amounts to cover the JD strikes nationally and this money would be better just given to the JDs.

There are far too many short term fixes applied when long term planning is needed. Partly because of the NHS being used as a political football and partly because a cheap bodge is always preferred at management level.

I'm by no means an expert in primary care but there's some good info here:

Pressures in general practice data analysis

We monitor data on GP workforce, working patterns and appointment numbers to help build a picture of the level of strain GP practices in England are under.

www.bma.org.uk

Partners are dying out (far too much hassle), more being driven to part time, less overall GPs out there and more demand and actually more appointments being carried out but by fewer people.

But any right minded, unbiased member of the English public, as can be seen from umpteen comments here, can see that access to their GP hasn't gradually declined, but fallen off a cliff post covid. The government haven't done anything rash to promote this absence of G{'s, it's something GP's have taken upon themselves. They are simply refusing the same access from patients that patients enjoyed and expected before.

It's a national disgrace and government policy has had no input. It's nothing to do with wages, GP's are more than well remunerated given the hours they do now compared to historically.

The government have asked for data from GP's and other bodies to show how many face to face consultancies they have done, pre and post the virus. This data has been refused. Why??

Locally the GP practices have MORE GP's on the staff, but getting a face to face is a total joke. So it's obviously an in practice decision to limit face to face diagnosis. Is it fear of the virus, or lethargy? Or is it enabling the virus as an excuse to raise their wages even further by nefarious blackmail tactics?

 

[ci_newman]

But any right minded, unbiased member of the English public, as can be seen from umpteen comments here, can see that access to their GP hasn't gradually declined, but fallen off a cliff post covid. The government haven't done anything rash to promote this absence of G{'s, it's something GP's have taken upon themselves. They are simply refusing the same access from patients that patients enjoyed and expected before.

It's a national disgrace and government policy has had no input. It's nothing to do with wages, GP's are more than well remunerated given the hours they do now compared to historically.

The government have asked for data from GP's and other bodies to show how many face to face consultancies they have done, pre and post the virus. This data has been refused. Why??

Locally the GP practices have MORE GP's on the staff, but getting a face to face is a total joke. So it's obviously an in practice decision to limit face to face diagnosis. Is it fear of the virus, or lethargy? Or is it enabling the virus as an excuse to raise their wages even further by nefarious blackmail tactics?

To be honest, for the majority of the population remote / e-consultations are much more efficient compared to face to face visits and it reduces the GPs exposure to any viruses or bugs that their patients are carrying (covid or otherwise).

For the majority of appointments, diagnosis can be done remotely - especially if they need follow-up blood / urine testing anyway.

 

[Minstadave]

But any right minded, unbiased member of the English public, as can be seen from umpteen comments here, can see that access to their GP hasn't gradually declined, but fallen off a cliff post covid. The government haven't done anything rash to promote this absence of G{'s, it's something GP's have taken upon themselves. They are simply refusing the same access from patients that patients enjoyed and expected before.

It's a national disgrace and government policy has had no input. It's nothing to do with wages, GP's are more than well remunerated given the hours they do now compared to historically.

The government have asked for data from GP's and other bodies to show how many face to face consultancies they have done, pre and post the virus. This data has been refused. Why??

Locally the GP practices have MORE GP's on the staff, but getting a face to face is a total joke. So it's obviously an in practice decision to limit face to face diagnosis. Is it fear of the virus, or lethargy? Or is it enabling the virus as an excuse to raise their wages even further by nefarious blackmail tactics?

Does this fit reality though, or are you generalising from a few cases from the vocal minority? What are you basing this on?

GP appointments are running around 70% face to face and that's pretty stable at the moment. That's Goveernment figures, easily available. Remote appointments work well for many of my patients and I expect are helpful to some.

Services like Babylon are making easy money providing telemedicine Primary Care.

 

[Chris Wilson]

To be honest, for the majority of the population remote / e-consultations are much more efficient compared to face to face visits and it reduces the GPs exposure to any viruses or bugs that their patients are carrying (covid or otherwise).

For the majority of appointments, diagnosis can be done remotely - especially if they need follow-up blood / urine testing anyway.

Utter BS, a doctor cannot diagnose a patient remotely as he or she could touchy feely, and you know it.