Junior doctor strike: Union's pay demands unrealistic, says Steve Barclay

Funding is nowhere near enough. People love to pretend the NHS is some sort of magical entity that they dearly love as they cram another takeaway into their fat faces and chin another pint. The system is a bit of a mess and suffers from all of the issues public sector have along with political meddling.

Its a mess and will have to have wide reaching changes in the next decade or so. This is what you get unfortunately. Medical care is getting better and better but more and more expensive. People are getting exponentially unhealthier yet are living longer than ever due to the medical care that keeps them alive long after they should have kicked the bucket. Keeping people alive longer is really expensive and people simply take the **** because we have a massive culture of entitlement. "I paid £50 in tax in the 80's so I should get the very best treatment money can buy for the next 30 years".

More on topic. Junior doctors should get paid more but 35% is taking the ****. They are unlikely to get anything over 20% and I reckon thats unlikely. People will die due to these strikes and the mess will be even bigger than before. Theres not really a good solution.
 
Chris Wilson said:
Show me the data from GP's giving pre and post Chinese virus face to face referrals, the government are refused it, if you have GP's ears and they have slipped it to you, post it up...
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That data is publicly available on a monthly basis:

Appointments in General Practice, February 2023 - NHS England Digital

We’re the national information and technology partner to the health and social care system using digital technology to transform the NHS and social care
digital.nhs.uk digital.nhs.uk

And as for pre and post COVID trends 80% of consultations were F2F pre covid, and currently it's 70% (which likely reflects better awareness and general comfort with alternative consultation methods):

 
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fez said:
More on topic. Junior doctors should get paid more but 35% is taking the ****. They are unlikely to get anything over 20% and I reckon thats unlikely. People will die due to these strikes and the mess will be even bigger than before. Theres not really a good solution.
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The 35% is a starting position and reflects the real term pay cuts the position has seen. Stephen Barclay is spinning it as a precondition but I don't think that is true.

Welsh JDs took a similar position and it was quickly resolved although the details are a bit sketchy but avoided IA.

www.bma.org.uk

Pay restoration for resident doctors in Wales

Resident doctor pay in Wales has eroded substantially since 2008. With waiting times recently at an all time high in Wales, now more than ever the value of recruiting and retaining resident doctors is evident. That’s why we’re fighting for fair pay. That’s why we’re fighting for full pay...
www.bma.org.uk www.bma.org.uk
 
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Minstadave said:
That data is publicly available on a monthly basis:

Appointments in General Practice, February 2023 - NHS England Digital

We’re the national information and technology partner to the health and social care system using digital technology to transform the NHS and social care
digital.nhs.uk digital.nhs.uk

And as for pre and post COVID trends 80% of consultations were F2F pre covid, and currently it's 70% (which likely reflects better awareness and general comfort with alternative consultation methods):

Click to expand...
You shouldn't be using facts!

It upsets the ranting about lazy doctors and languages.

Given Chris's posts it makes me wonder if I'm living in the UK or somewhere else given that we've been seeing the doctors face to face for things that need an actual physical presence, as well as talking via phone where we've not (things like repeated prescription issues, or checks about ongoing issues) at various times all through covid.
Even the local hospital has been very good despite their staffing isses, we had an appointment there the other week so popped into audiology* as my dad's been having problems with his hearing (he uses hearing aids), and they had someone have a quick look and put him on the list for a new hearing test (which came through for a couple of weeks).

The staff at the NHS at all levels seem to be doing their best and are generally speaking great, but the funding isn't there, and they all seem to be massively undermanned.


*Our theory being we were on the floor below for something else, so rather than ring up pop upstairs and talk to their reception.
 
Minstadave said:
The 35% is a starting position and reflects the real term pay cuts the position has seen. Stephen Barclay is spinning it as a precondition but I don't think that is true.
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I know but thats not how almost anyones salary works. I don't think anyone is disputing the "real term pay cut" but wages have stagnated across the board in this country. How much will it cost to give everyone in the public sector a pay increase that reflects this?

Thats why these things aren't quite as cut and dry or one and done as they appear. Junior doctors should get a pay rise. It shouldn't be anywhere near 35% though. I have no idea where the two sides are honestly. Do we actually know what both are truly after?
 
Werewolf said:
The staff at the NHS at all levels seem to be doing their best and are generally speaking great, but the funding isn't there, and they all seem to be massively undermanned.
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Over the last three years our household have used the NHS far more than any family should have to, for brain stuff, heart stuff, cancer stuff, regular checkups etc. The only complaint I had was that some of the appointments took rather longer than we'd have liked, but when you come from a country where there is no medical care unless it's private, you soon learn to appreciate the NHS.

As usual Chris hasn't got a clue what he's talking about and is probably figuring out a way to blame immigration.
 
Chris Wilson said:
Show me the data from GP's giving pre and post Chinese virus face to face referrals, the government are refused it, if you have GP's ears and they have slipped it to you, post it up...
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Not sure why you're ranting about GPs. That's nothing to do with Junior Doctors. GP numbers have been rapidly dwindling for well over a decade ; the pandemic pushed many over the edge to retire early. Demoralised, underpaid, undervalued junior doctors means fewer will be incentivised to train up and fill those vacant posts. FYI, the majority of junior doctors exist in hospital posts ( even those who ultimately plan to become GPs ).
 
Hotwired said:
£75k for driving a bus on rails seems generous indeed. Impressive amount of leverage to get that.
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They get £64k not £75k. Not allowed to do overtime either.

In the 10 years I've been working for TfL/LU, every single year I've had a pay rise of minimum February's RPI. Some years it's been 1.4%, others like last year it was 8.4%. This is due to our unions agreeing a pay deal to ensure our pay does not get eroded by inflation.

So whilst our pay has increased, it's really only been matching inflation. Every employer should be doing the same IMO.
 
A2Z said:
They get £64k not £75k. Not allowed to do overtime either.

In the 10 years I've been working for TfL/LU, every single year I've had a pay rise of minimum February's RPI. Some years it's been 1.4%, others like last year it was 8.4%. This is due to our unions agreeing a pay deal to ensure our pay does not get eroded by inflation.

So whilst our pay has increased, it's really only been matching inflation. Every employer should be doing the same IMO.
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This is why tfl pay is higher and seems they are overpaid, when really the rest are underpaid, ie not keep up with inflation.
 
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Vanquish-Storm said:
What is a GP salary compared to a Junior Doctor?
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Around 75k for Full time salaried. However, two important things :

Full time is traditionally 37.5 hours. I would say depending on workload most end up doing 40 - 48 hours a week.

The other factor - GP practice income has barely moved over the years. About 1% a year. Meaning, everything comes out of partner income as they can't keep up with inflation. For most GPs this means they tend not to salary , prefer locum and pick and choose what they do.

As a result there's been a massive partner exodus. Single handed practices have been collapsing across the country. Hell, even private firms who hand select the easiest patients cannot make it work :

www.telegraph.co.uk

Babylon Health virtual GP app faces cash crunch

Start-up championed by Matt Hancock could have as little as three months worth of cash in the bank
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
 
None of our GP's seem to work a full week, I think they take it in turns turning up for a couple of days. I suppose they must be happy with the 30-40k that gives them. :D
 
Minstadave said:
That data is publicly available on a monthly basis:

Appointments in General Practice, February 2023 - NHS England Digital

We’re the national information and technology partner to the health and social care system using digital technology to transform the NHS and social care
digital.nhs.uk digital.nhs.uk

And as for pre and post COVID trends 80% of consultations were F2F pre covid, and currently it's 70% (which likely reflects better awareness and general comfort with alternative consultation methods):

Click to expand...
Hi @Chris Wilson, just tagging you incase you missed this last night :)
 
Chris Wilson said:
But any right minded, unbiased member of the English public, as can be seen from umpteen comments here, can see that access to their GP hasn't gradually declined, but fallen off a cliff post covid. The government haven't done anything rash to promote this absence of G{'s, it's something GP's have taken upon themselves. They are simply refusing the same access from patients that patients enjoyed and expected before.

It's a national disgrace and government policy has had no input. It's nothing to do with wages, GP's are more than well remunerated given the hours they do now compared to historically.

The government have asked for data from GP's and other bodies to show how many face to face consultancies they have done, pre and post the virus. This data has been refused. Why??

Locally the GP practices have MORE GP's on the staff, but getting a face to face is a total joke. So it's obviously an in practice decision to limit face to face diagnosis. Is it fear of the virus, or lethargy? Or is it enabling the virus as an excuse to raise their wages even further by nefarious blackmail tactics?
Click to expand...

NHS Digital publishes data on GP appointments, including breakdowns by appointmrnt type hete:

Appointments in General Practice, February 2023 - NHS England Digital

We’re the national information and technology partner to the health and social care system using digital technology to transform the NHS and social care
digital.nhs.uk digital.nhs.uk
 
Buddy said:
Around 75k for Full time salaried. However, two important things :

Full time is traditionally 37.5 hours. I would say depending on workload most end up doing 40 - 48 hours a week.

The other factor - GP practice income has barely moved over the years. About 1% a year. Meaning, everything comes out of partner income as they can't keep up with inflation. For most GPs this means they tend not to salary , prefer locum and pick and choose what they do.

As a result there's been a massive partner exodus. Single handed practices have been collapsing across the country. Hell, even private firms who hand select the easiest patients cannot make it work :

www.telegraph.co.uk

Babylon Health virtual GP app faces cash crunch

Start-up championed by Matt Hancock could have as little as three months worth of cash in the bank
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
Click to expand...
They are the ones I have used.
 
Goodie said:
Hi @Chris Wilson, just tagging you incase you missed this last night :)
Click to expand...

I'm working today, some of us are trying to catch up on lost time thanks to China. Not plotting with militants in the BMA and militant leaders of the young doctors to go on strike...

What I want to see are statistics showing the actual number of face to face consultations by GP's prior to the start of the virus, compared to th numbers being seen now. Not as a percentage of all consultations, and not including giving routine inoculations. Those statistics don't seem to show that.

And I also would like to hear why GP's refused these simple figures to the government.
 
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