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Junior Doctors Strikes
- Thread starter Dr House
- Start date
Ah, I see. Not quite as bad as I thought then. But obviously with this dropping and no inflationary rise real terms pay has certainly decreased.
Plus, the huge cost to actually get there. Not a particularly attractive career. Though I suppose it’s a vocation so you can pay for your groceries with wallets full of applause…
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Commissario
Yup
And it's something a lot of people don't realise, you can get better pay, working conditions, and hours with no degree "just" working nights in a warehouse and zero debt repayments (until at least 5 years after qualification, but allowing for the student debts, possibly a lot longer).
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Caporegime
I mean, thats probably the bigger issue, massive debt before you start. The NHS pension is also pretty damn good still. Part of the reason I understand why many doctors retire when they hit their 50s. They have maxed out their pension pots and would start getting taxed on it making work less attractive.
Caporegime
And 20 years down the line you will still be earning £15/hr working nights at a warehouse while the doctor could be on over £100k/year do a job that doesn't require working nights and isn't mind numbingly boring.
The biggest thing they need to fix in the NHS is recruitment, retention and training. Training shouldn't saddle people with debt, services should be properly staffed so those that are working are not constantly trying to keep their head above water and they should get a pay rise. The pay rise is probably the least important of these IMO.
Soldato
Those hourly rates are dreadful.
It’s one strike I definitely agree with.
It’s one strike I definitely agree with.
50-somethings deciding working life isn't attractive anymore and retiring with their inflated assets isn't restricted to medicine. It's an economic timebomb started in the Thatcher years that is going to cripple the country until the generation that benefitted from it dies off.
Commissario
That's the difference, but if you've not got money/very supportive family who can help you through the first few (10-15+) years it's going to be a big problem and going to get worse. It's certainly something that is going to put off an awful lot of very bright people who are looking at medicine, especially as they'll have the option of not "just" a warehouse job but potentially other jobs that require degrees but have far better working hours and similar pay prospects* when you hit 40+.
Another difference is you're unlikely to burn out/deal with anything like the trauma that is common for medical staff if you work in a boring job
I've seen so many stories of people who've given up medicine because the stress/trauma and low pay with little chance of improvement in the near/mid term.*But much less debt so effectively higher pay much earlier.
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Caporegime
There's probably some misunderstanding there. No one is retiring at 50 anymore and the NHS pension is an absolute disaster at the moment because of annual allowance problems of a defined benefit scheme and inflation. People are dropping out of the pension in there 50s because of the huge bills incurred but not retiring.
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Associate
Why are these guys using food banks if they are all above the national average salary? It smells a little to be honest! The guys in the warehouse at Aldi are on roughly 20k a year which is below these salary figures for perspective.
I think the solution would be for the student debt (even for current staff) would have some sort of additional contribution from the government (maybe matching or doubling the individual contributions) based on NHS work - so you pay the loan off faster working in the NHS. To stop people coming to the UK just for training and then going back to home countries.
The problem with 10-20% pay rising around this 70-90k salary mark is that a good chunk of people will take the money and then work one less day a week to offset the tax/life balance.
edit - spelling
I think the solution would be for the student debt (even for current staff) would have some sort of additional contribution from the government (maybe matching or doubling the individual contributions) based on NHS work - so you pay the loan off faster working in the NHS. To stop people coming to the UK just for training and then going back to home countries.
The problem with 10-20% pay rising around this 70-90k salary mark is that a good chunk of people will take the money and then work one less day a week to offset the tax/life balance.
edit - spelling
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Caporegime
Depends what doctors theyre talking about. Recently it been changed so it's s better to work 80% as a Junior Doctor and do some locums rather than working 100%. It doesn't even affect length of training for many. Strange choice by HEE.
Caporegime
I don't think JDs are using food banks. That's mostly brought up regarding nurses.
Soldato
Again, I don't disagree that nurses and doctors should be better paid and go through a lot of education and training.
However, the fundamental issue of the Government underfunding the public sector means that a lot of people are unable to afford a basic standard of living. Should anyone working in any sector or role be paid so little that they can't afford to live and have to resort to food banks?
I know this is going wider than just the NHS, but admin staff, council workers, teachers, care workers etc... They're all part of a big machine and still required for everything to function smoothly.
Eg If part of the solution is to reduce doctors admin work, someone else needs to do that work. The admin need to be suitably paid too.
if we want to discharge "bed blockers" from hospital, care homes need to have sufficient capacity and staff.
The public sector is struggling to recruit and retain trained staff across the board.
There is no easy fix and ultimately it will come down to priorities. Currently the Government are just fire fighting and agreeing terms to end strikes as a last resort, rather than to address the fundamental issues. I suspect the Government will reach an agreement more urgently where they think it will score the most points politically, but more pay doesn't magically fix things. It helps, but the issues are much deeper.
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Commissario
Mainly I think it's nursing staff.
But the reason is fairly simple, nursing staff often aren't on particularly high salaries, these days they're usually in debt for the education* and on pay that has gone down massively in real terms, whilst all their living costs have gone up.
What used to be a "low but comfortable" wage for nursing staff now often isn't really enough to cover the cost of basic living expenses, especially if they have kids and no family nearby who can be relied on to offer free childcare. One of my friends has two kids, the only reason he and his wife could both continue to work when the kids were young was because she worked at a school and got childcare at a massive discount, it was still a significant part of their outgoings, and they worked roughly normal "business hours", no night shifts, no long day shifts etc.
*A far cry from when they not only only didn't have to pay university fees but usually got a small payment whilst training and housing during training.
Not really trolling, more voicing my feelings on the attitudes of Dr's, as did the majority of my posts in this thread, but in art form
Associate
I get that nurses don't get paid the same as doctors - but they are still clearing (after student loan repayments) more than the national average salary. Are we saying that most people in the country need a food bank now? Or is it something being said repeatedly now to assist with the bargaining for a pay rise?
It is an unpopular opinion of mine that I put on this forum a while back. The usage of food banks is directly correlated to people who have no issue in using food banks.
If my late father was still alive, he would be first in the queue. Anything to save a buck to get precisely the same product.
This has been the case for many years, and activities like this one are probably helping this: https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/workforce/australia-minister-to-visit-uk-in-bid-to-steal-doctors/
I recently heard that a number of Indian doctors came up the UK to work and try to earn more money, they came and found out how bad the NHS is, and decided to go back to India instead of stay in the UK.
I think that the "national average" is too low, given the crazy cost of living increases in recent years.