Junior Doctors Strikes

fez said:
AI will take over certain aspects of a lot of jobs and as the tooling to integrate it gets better and better it will take more and more.
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There will be a place but the day a robot cam cannulate or intubated a 450g baby is a LONG way away. Or sneak up on a distressed teenager trying to cut themselves and jab them with some Lorazepam. Or councel a parent about their child's new tumour.
 
Semple said:
Not sure I agree there either. With more and more people requiring help with their mental health these days, I would probably argue that GPs are more likely to be around.
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You will not need a go to a gp for mental health, the rise is mental health for me (my view) directly linked to technological development of processing tools which make communication more efficient.

Thereby the more the mind has to process visual, sound and touch ie sensory information the less it will cope. This can explain in part the rise in anxiety and mental health around the world.

The chemicals produced in our Brain like serotonin etc that are produced and destroyed during each explosive event. If you are a doctor you should know what I am talking about.

Best and most simplest example I can think, a piston in a car and the fuel used, the explosive nature to create movement.
 
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Freakbro said:
I think it depends on the Country. Plenty of them have gone with reducing overall hours in their trial. The test is to see if productivity stays the same, which on the whole it does seem to be doing.

Here in the UK we've just had a 6 month trial, with 61 companies and 3,500 employees.



It seems to have been successful with 92% of those company's making the change permanent.
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I'd love for my employer to do something like this, but as a business providing various services 24/7 unless all of our customers also follow a 4 day week, then some will kick up a fuss about not being in touch with us on the 5th day.

I suppose you could do different days for different teams so there's at least some people about for every day of the week. But that runs into scheduling problems where 2 days of the week meetings can't be arranged to account for neither team being in.
 
Mrwong said:
I said gps are on limited time, they will be the first to go. Most of the medical field will be swallowed up by tech.

It’s pretty depressing when you come to think how technology has publicly been pushed as helping and making us more efficient, the reality is for which group.
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I think AI will augment care and help people self manage, but the real clinical work in primary care is really the communication and the more nuanced balancing of risks in complex care which is looking at side effects, impacts on people’s lives, mental health impacts and largely comes down to communication and someone who can understand the clinical side, but also empathise and deal with the human factors that isn’t just a biological model.

I think this is a long way from people being willing to let AI do that for them, but most people don’t really understand the actual job of a GP anyway. If anything I think perhaps the skill set of a good GP will be one the last areas to disappear, but we are talking decades anyway. I just hope it can be up to speed and some use to help with the rapidly dropping numbers of doctors over the next decade or so
 
Mrwong said:
You will not need a go to a gp for mental health, the rise is mental health for me (my view) directly linked to technological development of processing tools which make communication more efficient.

Thereby the more the mind has to process visual, sound and touch ie sensory information the less it will cope. This can explain in part the rise in anxiety and mental health around the world.

The chemicals produced in our Brain like serotonin etc that are produced and destroyed during each explosive event.

best example I can think of like a piston in a car and the fuel used, the explosive nature to create movement.
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Again if that's the case then the demand for GPs for mental health services will skyrocket. The "technological development of processing tools making communication more efficient" isn't going to slow down. It'll continue to increase and engrain into our lives further and further.
 
Semple said:
Again if that's the case then the demand for GPs for mental health services will skyrocket. The "technological development of processing tools making communication more efficient" isn't going to slow down. It'll continue to increase and engrain into our lives further and further.
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A.I will eventually take over, not in our lifetime.

We will just see cases of mental health rise because of exhaustive nature of technology.

I guess we will become violent in nature as each generation is exposed to technological change. Could we adapt can’t say, as we have an organic limit.

Doctors have more tools, so they end up treating more people.

I wonder what was the most common number of patients treat by one gp in a day say 30 years ago and now.

I guess higher today than 30 years ago.
 
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Mrwong said:
A.I will eventually take over, not in our lifetime.

We will just see cases of mental health rise because of exhaustive nature of technology.

I guess we will become violent in nature as each generation is exposed to technological change. Could we adapt can’t say, as we have an organic limit.

Doctors have more tools, so they end up treating more people.

I wonder what was the most common number of patients treat by one gp in a day say 30 years ago and now.

I guess higher today than 30 years ago.
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It’s the complexity not the numbers. Actual numbers of patients possible not a great deal different. 30 yrs ago a large amount was self limiting infections and can be rattled through quickly. That work has moved to other clinicians
 
heeeed said:
It’s the complexity not the numbers. Actual numbers of patients possible not a great deal different. 30 yrs ago a large amount was self limiting infections and can be rattled through quickly. That work has moved to other clinicians
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5 min appointment with gp 2020s, 1990s 20 min appointments.
And yes complexity is involved.
 
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Mrwong said:
Lol 10 mins now.
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And you know this to be wrong because your are one and you don’t get that much time? It is 10 mins. I will accept that involves time for someone to walk into room, consult, examine as needed, arrange possible investigations, and write it up, which i agree is a lot to do in 10 mins, but that indeed is the average
 
heeeed said:
Anyway all of that is off topic. Junior docs lives are a bit crappy, and they deserve better from their paymasters.

There is a crisis currently in medicine that has been ignored for too long. On a similar vein although not strictly speaking juniors the dropout rate from practice is catastrophic currently

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Question. Has the intake foreign students that pay increased? Is there a cap on spaces per year.
 
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I’m not sure on medical student places. There is a cap always in the sense of needing to have room for clinical placements and there are not that many medical schools, however I don’t believe the is some fixed cap in general.
My link above is qualified GPs leaving though not medical students.
 
Semple said:
I would argue that lack of a guaranteed future job is definitely not a concern. There will always be a demand for medical personnel. Unlike many jobs that will be lost to automation or AI, medical will probably be one of the last.
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I will clarify - no guaranteed future job in terms of progression. After foundation years (first 2 years), you generally pick a specialty, and apply for that specialty.
Competition ratios are usually about 2 to 25+ per training job.
If you don't get a training job, you can either locum as a very junior doctor and reapply each year until you get a training job, or change specialty aims and repeat the process, or leave medicine.
That's a massive downside to training. I know people lots of doctors who are stuck finding a specialty training job, or stuck finding a consultant job.
 
Mrwong said:
Has the intake foreign students that pay increased? Is there a cap on spaces per year.
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Capped at 7.5% of the yearly total intake

heeeed said:
There is a cap always in the sense of needing to have room for clinical placements and there are not that many medical schools, however I don’t believe the is some fixed cap in general.
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there was a cap previously at 7500/yr uk-wide
this has been lifted, although there is still a technical cap, which is how much £££ the gov wants to fund the places
 
Semple said:
That level of medical technology is at least a century or two away. AI will certainly start edging its way in, but not for complete replacement.

Also I find it intriguing that you think the medical field can be easily replaced by AI/Automation, yet you still think there will be a need for electricians and builders?

At some point in the future, it'll be a case of a robot deploying a big printer and printing out the structure and electricals included - no need for electricians or builders then.
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In some ways I think (crazy) he's Mrright

I see AI primarily taking analysis and hopefully some GP work. I recall seeing somewhere AI is already better at spotting x-rays for certain conditions.


For sure I don't see it taking it all for a long time. But I do think it will begin to invade as time goes by. At the moment, in medical, that can only be a good thing with the lack of doctors etc
 
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