Just dropped a deposit on some M Power - Trackday Project Car

And the RWD lap record is 1.17.075 according to this: http://www.timeattack.co.uk/index.php/championship/item/62-lap-records

Seems if you can get a CSL putting in laps 3+ seconds faster than that with a few simple mods, a lot of people are wasting a lot of money? :p

The video above shows a boffo CSL doing 1:18 on a none competitive Trackday, like Kosta says time attack does not necessarily mean good driver.

Seems the link pcoltrane posted is more professional drivers as they beaten the fastest time attack lap time in handicap M3's, in short weight added and none slick tyres used so they meet regulation. :)

So yes M3 CSL and M3 owners are lapping faster on trackdays, well some of them. :)
 
Gibbo I've seen pretty much your exact same car up near me in the North East.

Reg is M3 ***. Same colour, front bumper etc.

Dunno if you've seen it around on any forums?

Yeah that's my pal, he's managed 1:11 at Donny on winter tyres. I can't show you any links of him posting about his car and him claiming this though. ;)

Nope in all seriousness no idea, but M3's are cheap to pick up now so probably a few people buying them up. :)
 
I don't know much about the regs of the Kumho series, they just happen to race some of the same race weekends as I do so I'd seen them on track and they came to mind when I was reading this thread.

They often use the power to weight ratio in race series to equalise different types and generations of cars. The power is measured at the rear wheels rather than the crankshaft, but you are probably right that a CSL may need to be detuned or have weight added to meet the regs.
It looks like they can use BTCC/WTCC bodykits (but no diffusers) and have a reasonable amount of freedom to uprate suspension but the tyres have to be Kumho Ecsta V700s with specified maximum tyre widths.
Probably quite a relevant benchmark for this discussion anyway :)

The drivers certainly aren't pros. They are just of club racers out for some fun on their weekends. Saying that, the guys who are winning in club racers are often genuinely good drivers who could give some of the pros a run for their money in equal machinery. The driver makes such a difference (easily many seconds a lap between a top club racer and an ok one) so it's always hard to compare two different cars or car classes unless you either have the same driver or 2 drivers that you can benchmark against each other somehow.
Having seen a few time attack videos and been out on test days with some, the driving standards have been very mixed.

Thanks for that mate. :)
Quite interesting as I'd have thought time attack and this would be pro drivers, so I guess it is plausible then why some guys on just regular track days can lap faster, especially if their career is a pro driver and they have no regulations to meet and are running slicks.

The V700's a lot of M3 guys have tried and rate them as a pretty good track tyre but the same guys have also tried cups and rate them better. Some have also tried slicks and well they are much better lol. :)
 
Don't know, don't care.

All I know is you've asked him to justify his position and I'm asking you to justify yours because you present yours with facts, which quite frankly don't seem to stand up to scrutiny. And you've still not answered the question.

I answered your question, I see no reason why the owner of both an EVO and CSL would make up lies and he is a real person.

I've posted a video of a CSL doing 1:18, of which was running standard power, had the brakes changed to APs and was running Michelin cups and driven by an enthusiast, not a professional.

A guy who we don't know but is known by others on the internet has being timed in the damp at 1:16 and that guy claimed he thinks the car had a 1:12 in it. His CSL had 100kg weight reduction, 380BHP so obviously some cams/remap in place, no doubt coilover suspension, was running full slicks and is a professional driver. It does not really take much intelligence to realise this guy is gonna be a few seconds faster than the guy in the video doing 1:18's in a CSL that's pretty much stock apart from brakes. Are you disagreeing with this?

I know for a fact two or three guys in person who attend a lot of track days in their M3's and CSL's, they have coilovers, big brake kits, one is Alcon, the others AP's, they are all running Michelin cups and they are all lapping within 1:17-1:19 region in the dry on cup tyres, none of them hold a race license. These are real people who I have met in person and have no reason to tell porkies, they have fun and enjoy track days, this is the times they have managed.

So when a guy who is a professional driver, who other people know and confirm he does indeed own an EVO that's vastly modified on which he spent a small fortune and now owns an M3 CSL on which he removed weight from, tweaked the engine a little, fitted coilovers, bigger brakes and ran full slicks. I think we can safely assume he is capable of lapping faster than the group of guys I know doing 1:17-1:19's, he has no regulations to meet and from reading his post on other forums Donnington and Snetterton seem to be venues he frequents regular so its safe to assume he's a master of those tracks.

What I have done is provide links to claims I have made, of course we don't know those people making the claims or the person in question (Blade) who has said his EVO was doing 1:15's and his M3 CSL was quicker and mentioned a 1:12, he is just a guy on the internet, but he seems from reading his post rather genuine and well if he is at Donnington in a couple of weeks he can probably confirm or deny all. :)

Point is DG has made claim after claim, changes his mind often and has not even provided one single link trying to backup his claim or any evidence of any kind even if like you say under scrutiny it would not hold up.

Does DG even drive, how many trackdays has this guy done? I've attended well over 30 track days, driven a lot of different cars on track including EVO's and well as others have said an EVO/Impreza are a poor platform as track cars and to make them fast tends to mean big horsepower and a lot of money spent. Of course with money, time and expertise they can be made to go very fast, but so can any car, some of the cars you see at track can be a complete surprise and some can be very fast, but they are typically RWD or FWD vehicles as 4WD offers little/no benefit on a dry circuit and as such the added weight and power losses tend to make them slower.

DG at first claimed at sub 400 horsepower EVO not heavily modified and not running slicks could run a 1:15, all of a sudden that was changed to 1:19, then it was an Impreza, he was asked politely to post a link to the car or even a video, but its just someone he knows. Do you believe a sub 400 horsepower EVO can run 1:19, seriously what is your input on this considering the timeattack 650 or 850BHP Impreza I posted was only just managing such times. I've also being on track with my mate Tom, he owns an EVO X, he came on a track day with me in the 911, he turned up and slicks come out, I am like you crafty bugger. He was like the only way this is keeping up with a 911 is if its running slicks. At this time my 911 was not as fast on track as it is now, I was typically hovering in the 1:25 region and I was very slowly gaining on my mate in his EVO and passing him, mainly under braking and top-end acceleration. This guy holds a race license and his EVO X which was stock FQ-360 with the only thing changed was pads and to slick tyres was in 1:25 region, this is a FACT, real life it happened. So when DG comes along saying his mates sub 400BHP EVO, running normal tyres, not a pro driver and he does 1:19, well I guess the guy knows a shortcut on the track, DG's claims do not add up, would you not agree?
 
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Hi there


Here is the proof you required, mate text me a few minutes ago saying he knows Blade, he races in Britcar and yes his CSL was very real with a link. ;)

Here is Blades CSL:-
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=61254

Read it you will see he was actually racing his CSL in EERC britcar series with Ed Moore and Angus Dawe driving too. :)

He confirms he did a 1:17 with the car relatively stock CSL, engine completely standard (he estimates 370BHP), supersprint exhaust but stock cats, ground control coilovers, full set of AP brakes with weight around 1200kg. He confirms a 1:17, he mentions a 1:03 at Silverstone too, no idea how that fairs.

He then modified the car quite a bit, re-sprayed it red, fitted carbon doors, GTR bonnet, Lexan windows, shorter higher locking diff, cams and remap, de-cats, fitted his EVO spoiler for aero, which would mean it would be a little faster. But no confirmation of lap time.

15,000 miles on track, raced in EERC britcar series too and not a single issue from engine or gearbox. :)

A picture of it after the above modifications:-
attachment.php



So he managed a 1:16/1:17, before he did further modification in the EERC Britcar series, so maybe not slicks but not sure and not bothered. But its safe to assume it went a bit faster after loosing more weight and gaining more power. A 1:12 can't see any actual confirmation of that, just that it should do, I think its fair to say he'd be around 1:14 with the additional modifications he made. But this post he made in 2004 when he owned the CSL, when he posted mentioning 1:12 on Civinfo that was in 2012, so its possible with the above modifications, more practice, ideal conditions and on slicks maybe he did, but unless he categorically states he did lets not waste any more time worrying about it.

I think it is fair to say that is concrete evidence, no scrutiny to be done, the guys races in britcar, the link shows he is very well known, photos, blah blah blah.


P.S. What this does say is the guy in the video I posted earlier is Sy's car from CSL register his cars spec is stock engine, supersprint exhaust, intrax coilovers, AP brakes and Michelin cups, 1:18 is a good drive, as are the other guys I know who run CSL's too, but they have driven Donnington more than me. ;)
Here is Sy again doing that 1:18:-

Based on this research I have done I would say whilst I am on cup tyres the best I can hope for is a 1:18 with very good brakes and that would probably be a perfect lap and not driven by me, would have to give one of the CSL guys my keys. ;)
 
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my god there was a lot of repeating itself in this thread.

So from all that i can work out.

With bigger brakes, decent coilovers and mich cups, gibbos m3 or a csl should do a 1.18

Blades car on full slicks with more power and less weight will do about a 1.14

gibbos brake fliud cooked and has replaced it, now hopes to run about a 1.20 until he goes AP/ALCON

He should have video footage any donnington when his brakes are up to it in a couple weeks time hopefully proving that time with another driver.

I will probably catch up with him in end of april to see if we can both get on track together and ill film him from behind to verify how quick his car is


I think that about covers it, as much as I love reading about lap times I think we should move onto something else.

Im guessing the next update is your lightweight boot back?

I think a 1:22 with fixed brakes, 1:20 with APs or Alcons, any faster, put someone else in the car. ;)

Yes bootlid is being fitted, should collect it tomorrow or next week. :)
Then fitting wheel bearing, bleed nipples and re-bleeding brakes again, plus oil change maintenance work.

Other planned mods is an AP brake kit and some lightweight under-drive pulleys.

Then make interior nice, thin carpet, door cards etc.

ENJOY THE CAR! :D

Maybe next year, cage and slicks, but we will see. :)
 
You really should use a cage if you are harnessed in a proper seat, and by the sounds of it are going to be chasing times.

If you roll the car at speed a harness and fixed seat by design hold you in position, which means if you roll and the pillars fail you have no room for getting moved in your seat if you come in contact with the ground like you would with a normal belt and seat (I.e side to side as the roof compresses) just something to think about, a cage must only be around £1500 fitted and is pretty vital if you are going to be pushing the limits.

Yes I have tried contacting Simpsons about a rear cage install and cost, just waiting for feedback. Got a friend locally who did his own cage install so that's an option too if he has spare time but he is busy with university and re-building a 911 at moment.
 
Thanks, your post above proves what I was saying.

The 1.12 lap time was set by a CSL that was far from just "a bit of weight saving and suspension improvements" as you had originally wrongly claimed. It's a fully prep'd race car, racing in the Britcar series, which makes sense.

Easy to do, infact Tony the owner has emailed me with full details of his EVO, CSL, times etc. If he is OK with it I will post his response here and it can be the end of it as it will be facts, not just what someone said on the internets or what a mate said in the pub or someone just made up. :)

Will DG go under the same scrutiny I wonder to prove his 1:19 claim for a regular EVO without big power or track/race prepared on road tyres? As do you believe that is possible, from my experience it seems incredible unlikely and you seem pretty clued up so what is your thinking on that claim?
 
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Hasn't Donington Park been dug up and redone since a lot of these "lap" times were done?

Yes, Tony has replied in detail about this, once he gives OK to post his reply up I will.

In short the only concrete proven thing we have now is that a CSL / M3 with coilovers, big brake kit, Michelin cups will lap the new circuit in 1:17-1:19 on a track day, this is a proven. :)

Anything else does not really count and lets face it, the argument is pointless I wanted an M3, I am happy with it and love it on track but surprisingly enjoy it a lot on the road too. :D
 
i don't mind if im scrutinized gibbo its normal for me but i don't care about if liked or not so i just do as i do and carry on.

the proof is on youtube. of scoobies doing 1:19 normal drivers not over modified (400 bhp) . its a shame there has been such a finger style point at whats true this and that . quite a interesting debate.

maybe with better braking (late breaking is best at donnigton) bit more practice you'll get your time down a bit.

whats your next plan ? shedding some more weight?

Post the video up, none of us can find it as our youtube skills clearly suck. :)
 
just been looking at the ap break set ups on simpsons what you going with :cool:

Post the link up to the video.

AP shall just go with front 6-pot calipers, 350mm disc and pads, about £2000 brand new, but fingers crossed one of the CSL guys will be selling his soon for about half that. Rears shall be left stock, most say have 4-pot AP kit on the rear gives marginal benefit in hindsight.

I am just keeping an eye on what comes up for sale but Alcon or AP's on front with larger disc will do me fine and be a vast improvement over the stock calipers and 325mm PF disc I am using. :)
 
GC8 impreza so actually should be compared to the E36 Generation of M3.

Quick google. Club class so 1A tyres only which is standard road tyres. Michelin Cups excluded.

http://youtu.be/1eGdwbovM-A

Around the 1:16~ time.

Horses for courses really.

That's just a bit more than 400BHP though, I can't recall but its either 650 or 850, sequential box, plus its got aero and is a full race prepared time attack, you don't go to the shops in that. :D

I want to see DG's video of this sub 400BHP road impreza that does 1:19, hoping he can share the url with us all. :)
 
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http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19

1.21 Flat. Evo VII 380BHP on R888 which isn't bad considering he is putting less power to the wheels than a M3.

Yep, thanks for the link m8. :)

So we have confirmed that a CSL / M3 will do 1:17-1:19 (1:18 in video with traffic) on cups, coilovers, big brake kit on standard engine power (360BHP) in the hands of an owner on trackdays.

And an EVO with similar power, R888's doing 1:21, so to achieve 1:19 it will need more power.

DG's claims seem un-proven that a EVO/Scoob is quicker than an M3 then which has had basic modifications, coilovers and brakes. I don't understand why he can't just post us up the link? Other people can manage it easily.


P.S. Tony answered your question about tyre wear in race series, he says the M3 manages tyres better. Shall post his in depth reply up later, I find that quite surprising really, but I supposed someone who as actually raced in Britcar knows far better than us internet experts. :)
 
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Guys

Safety question, first check this out:-
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...ng-e46-m3-track-car/2096725?isexperiment=true

In that advert they have fitted a reat strut brace and mounted the harnesses to it. See the advert images.

That strikes me like it might not be safe simply as a strut brace might not be strong enough but its just mounted with bolts to the top mounts I imagine, not welding. Anyones thoughts on that is it OK or a bad idea?
 
okay start with a teaser of a 450bhp scooby doing 1:19 :D


no that isnt the one ! ill look for link might post it later.

That's not a road car......

In short you were telling a porky pie were you not? Otherwise why not post up the video of this Impreza you said you easily found? ;)

So still slower than an M3 which can be used on the road with 360BHP, just post the video you told us all is easy to find on youtube that you keep telling us about DG. :)


P.S. I'd like to see him try and cut the chicane on the back straight now on the new layout, talk about straight lining the track and going beyond track limits. :D
 
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Just dropped some rubber stops off for the boot at the bodyshop. Boot is pretty much lined up now, bit of tweaking to do and then to be painted.


photo-3.jpg~original




:)
 
Seems quite expensive considering you have only spent in the region of 8-9k?


I guess they are hopeful, to summarise I've spent:-

Initial car cost: £6900
Money back from selling parts of it: £1000

So car cost £5900

New parts added:-

KW Clubsport coilovers: £1000
PF Rear Discs: £200
Apex wheels: £800
M3 CSL Exhaust: £350
Z4M Lollipops: £100
Evolve R Remap: £400
BMC Panel Filter: £40
Milltek 100 cel cats: £275
Rear LED Lights (Not fitted): £220
Rear Lightweight boot fitted & Painted: £400
Front CSL clone bumper and front end painted: £700
CSL pollen housing: £80
JPR Seat mounting bracket: £80

TOTAL: £4645 + £5900 car cost (£10545) - Bear in mind I have added a few items which were not required for this cars task, but hey its my project. :)


Service items:-
4x new cups: £800
PF08 Front pads: £180
Inspection 2 service, valves and all vanos bolts/hub replaced for prevenitive maintenance: £550
Allignments: £300


So probably around £2000 in maintenance but that will see me through all of this year as well. :)


Bear in mind the car for sale has Nitrons, I'd rate those over KW's and its already got the front AP's installed, but in fairness its missing a few things my car has.


If I sold mine tomorrow, I'd advertise it at £11,950 as its pretty well sorted now, but if I caged it, brakes done and spot on well based on that advert I'd just stick it up at £14,950 as it does seems there are a few people out there who just want to buy an M3 that is already done and can't stretch to the 30-40k that CSL's are costing now.....

But I would say that car to sell should be 13k. :)
 
Tbf you do make hard work of the chicane, cut the kerb ;)
tb1236421.jpg

If I cut it like that Impreza I'll be hitting those sausages hard, imagine they'd do a bit of damage, but agreed I could take more curb, just not that much. :)

But yes I could take more kerb pretty much all the corners. :)
 
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Tony

Thanks for taking the time and effort to post here. :)

That's one very impressive collection of cars. :eek:
Think I speak for all when I say post up a thread with some pics of them if you get time.
 
Don't seem to be able to upload pics.

You need to upload them to somewhere like photobucket and then get the url and put it between image tags, for example:-




P.S. As your into the track action, why no 911 or Cayman or are you not a Porsche fan?
 
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