Just dropped a deposit on some M Power - Trackday Project Car

So your whole justification IS based on what some bloke on the internet says.

Ignore anything else and just answer the question above:



The fastest lap I can find for a CSL at Donnington is 1.12.151. That was in Britcar Production, so I would imagine has had a bit more work done to it than a bit of weight saving, suspension and brakes.


Yes, but he is not just some guy on the internet, he is a genuine owner of EVO and M3 CSL, people I know in person have met him and seen him in action at Donnington and with any luck I should meet him in a couple of weeks at Donnington. So he is not just some guy of the internet who could be telling a lie.

Britcar production, find out exactly what is done to it, what and if any regulation there are.


What is DG's whole justification based on?
 
Potentially stupid question:

If an M3 is able to urinate all over Evos and Imprezas on track with relative ease, why are the time attack guys not using them? Is it simply regulation?

From what's being posted in this thread they could save a lot of money, time and effort just turning up in a stripped CSL rather than 600BHP monster Evos? :p
 
Don't forget that some (most) of the Time Attack drivers are not pro drivers.. just average guys who have built cars to meet Time Attack class regulations.
 
And the RWD lap record is 1.17.075 according to this: http://www.timeattack.co.uk/index.php/championship/item/62-lap-records

Seems if you can get a CSL putting in laps 3+ seconds faster than that with a few simple mods, a lot of people are wasting a lot of money? :p

The video above shows a boffo CSL doing 1:18 on a none competitive Trackday, like Kosta says time attack does not necessarily mean good driver.

Seems the link pcoltrane posted is more professional drivers as they beaten the fastest time attack lap time in handicap M3's, in short weight added and none slick tyres used so they meet regulation. :)

So yes M3 CSL and M3 owners are lapping faster on trackdays, well some of them. :)
 
Gibbo I've seen pretty much your exact same car up near me in the North East.

Reg is M3 ***. Same colour, front bumper etc.

Dunno if you've seen it around on any forums?
 
Gibbo I've seen pretty much your exact same car up near me in the North East.

Reg is M3 ***. Same colour, front bumper etc.

Dunno if you've seen it around on any forums?

Yeah that's my pal, he's managed 1:11 at Donny on winter tyres. I can't show you any links of him posting about his car and him claiming this though. ;)

Nope in all seriousness no idea, but M3's are cheap to pick up now so probably a few people buying them up. :)
 
The video above shows a boffo CSL doing 1:18 on a none competitive Trackday, like Kosta says time attack does not necessarily mean good driver.

Seems the link pcoltrane posted is more professional drivers as they beaten the fastest time attack lap time in handicap M3's, in short weight added and none slick tyres used so they meet regulation. :)

So yes M3 CSL and M3 owners are lapping faster on trackdays, well some of them. :)

I don't know much about the regs of the Kumho series, they just happen to race some of the same race weekends as I do so I'd seen them on track and they came to mind when I was reading this thread.

They often use the power to weight ratio in race series to equalise different types and generations of cars. The power is measured at the rear wheels rather than the crankshaft, but you are probably right that a CSL may need to be detuned or have weight added to meet the regs.
It looks like they can use BTCC/WTCC bodykits (but no diffusers) and have a reasonable amount of freedom to uprate suspension but the tyres have to be Kumho Ecsta V700s with specified maximum tyre widths.
Probably quite a relevant benchmark for this discussion anyway :)

The drivers certainly aren't pros. They are just of club racers out for some fun on their weekends. Saying that, the guys who are winning in club racers are often genuinely good drivers who could give some of the pros a run for their money in equal machinery. The driver makes such a difference (easily many seconds a lap between a top club racer and an ok one) so it's always hard to compare two different cars or car classes unless you either have the same driver or 2 drivers that you can benchmark against each other somehow.
Having seen a few time attack videos and been out on test days with some, the driving standards have been very mixed.
 
I don't know much about the regs of the Kumho series, they just happen to race some of the same race weekends as I do so I'd seen them on track and they came to mind when I was reading this thread.

They often use the power to weight ratio in race series to equalise different types and generations of cars. The power is measured at the rear wheels rather than the crankshaft, but you are probably right that a CSL may need to be detuned or have weight added to meet the regs.
It looks like they can use BTCC/WTCC bodykits (but no diffusers) and have a reasonable amount of freedom to uprate suspension but the tyres have to be Kumho Ecsta V700s with specified maximum tyre widths.
Probably quite a relevant benchmark for this discussion anyway :)

The drivers certainly aren't pros. They are just of club racers out for some fun on their weekends. Saying that, the guys who are winning in club racers are often genuinely good drivers who could give some of the pros a run for their money in equal machinery. The driver makes such a difference (easily many seconds a lap between a top club racer and an ok one) so it's always hard to compare two different cars or car classes unless you either have the same driver or 2 drivers that you can benchmark against each other somehow.
Having seen a few time attack videos and been out on test days with some, the driving standards have been very mixed.

Thanks for that mate. :)
Quite interesting as I'd have thought time attack and this would be pro drivers, so I guess it is plausible then why some guys on just regular track days can lap faster, especially if their career is a pro driver and they have no regulations to meet and are running slicks.

The V700's a lot of M3 guys have tried and rate them as a pretty good track tyre but the same guys have also tried cups and rate them better. Some have also tried slicks and well they are much better lol. :)
 
What is DG's whole justification based on?

Don't know, don't care.

All I know is you've asked him to justify his position and I'm asking you to justify yours because you present yours with facts, which quite frankly don't seem to stand up to scrutiny. And you've still not answered the question.
 
Don't know, don't care.

All I know is you've asked him to justify his position and I'm asking you to justify yours because you present yours with facts, which quite frankly don't seem to stand up to scrutiny. And you've still not answered the question.

I answered your question, I see no reason why the owner of both an EVO and CSL would make up lies and he is a real person.

I've posted a video of a CSL doing 1:18, of which was running standard power, had the brakes changed to APs and was running Michelin cups and driven by an enthusiast, not a professional.

A guy who we don't know but is known by others on the internet has being timed in the damp at 1:16 and that guy claimed he thinks the car had a 1:12 in it. His CSL had 100kg weight reduction, 380BHP so obviously some cams/remap in place, no doubt coilover suspension, was running full slicks and is a professional driver. It does not really take much intelligence to realise this guy is gonna be a few seconds faster than the guy in the video doing 1:18's in a CSL that's pretty much stock apart from brakes. Are you disagreeing with this?

I know for a fact two or three guys in person who attend a lot of track days in their M3's and CSL's, they have coilovers, big brake kits, one is Alcon, the others AP's, they are all running Michelin cups and they are all lapping within 1:17-1:19 region in the dry on cup tyres, none of them hold a race license. These are real people who I have met in person and have no reason to tell porkies, they have fun and enjoy track days, this is the times they have managed.

So when a guy who is a professional driver, who other people know and confirm he does indeed own an EVO that's vastly modified on which he spent a small fortune and now owns an M3 CSL on which he removed weight from, tweaked the engine a little, fitted coilovers, bigger brakes and ran full slicks. I think we can safely assume he is capable of lapping faster than the group of guys I know doing 1:17-1:19's, he has no regulations to meet and from reading his post on other forums Donnington and Snetterton seem to be venues he frequents regular so its safe to assume he's a master of those tracks.

What I have done is provide links to claims I have made, of course we don't know those people making the claims or the person in question (Blade) who has said his EVO was doing 1:15's and his M3 CSL was quicker and mentioned a 1:12, he is just a guy on the internet, but he seems from reading his post rather genuine and well if he is at Donnington in a couple of weeks he can probably confirm or deny all. :)

Point is DG has made claim after claim, changes his mind often and has not even provided one single link trying to backup his claim or any evidence of any kind even if like you say under scrutiny it would not hold up.

Does DG even drive, how many trackdays has this guy done? I've attended well over 30 track days, driven a lot of different cars on track including EVO's and well as others have said an EVO/Impreza are a poor platform as track cars and to make them fast tends to mean big horsepower and a lot of money spent. Of course with money, time and expertise they can be made to go very fast, but so can any car, some of the cars you see at track can be a complete surprise and some can be very fast, but they are typically RWD or FWD vehicles as 4WD offers little/no benefit on a dry circuit and as such the added weight and power losses tend to make them slower.

DG at first claimed at sub 400 horsepower EVO not heavily modified and not running slicks could run a 1:15, all of a sudden that was changed to 1:19, then it was an Impreza, he was asked politely to post a link to the car or even a video, but its just someone he knows. Do you believe a sub 400 horsepower EVO can run 1:19, seriously what is your input on this considering the timeattack 650 or 850BHP Impreza I posted was only just managing such times. I've also being on track with my mate Tom, he owns an EVO X, he came on a track day with me in the 911, he turned up and slicks come out, I am like you crafty bugger. He was like the only way this is keeping up with a 911 is if its running slicks. At this time my 911 was not as fast on track as it is now, I was typically hovering in the 1:25 region and I was very slowly gaining on my mate in his EVO and passing him, mainly under braking and top-end acceleration. This guy holds a race license and his EVO X which was stock FQ-360 with the only thing changed was pads and to slick tyres was in 1:25 region, this is a FACT, real life it happened. So when DG comes along saying his mates sub 400BHP EVO, running normal tyres, not a pro driver and he does 1:19, well I guess the guy knows a shortcut on the track, DG's claims do not add up, would you not agree?
 
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Hi there


Here is the proof you required, mate text me a few minutes ago saying he knows Blade, he races in Britcar and yes his CSL was very real with a link. ;)

Here is Blades CSL:-
http://www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?t=61254

Read it you will see he was actually racing his CSL in EERC britcar series with Ed Moore and Angus Dawe driving too. :)

He confirms he did a 1:17 with the car relatively stock CSL, engine completely standard (he estimates 370BHP), supersprint exhaust but stock cats, ground control coilovers, full set of AP brakes with weight around 1200kg. He confirms a 1:17, he mentions a 1:03 at Silverstone too, no idea how that fairs.

He then modified the car quite a bit, re-sprayed it red, fitted carbon doors, GTR bonnet, Lexan windows, shorter higher locking diff, cams and remap, de-cats, fitted his EVO spoiler for aero, which would mean it would be a little faster. But no confirmation of lap time.

15,000 miles on track, raced in EERC britcar series too and not a single issue from engine or gearbox. :)

A picture of it after the above modifications:-
attachment.php



So he managed a 1:16/1:17, before he did further modification in the EERC Britcar series, so maybe not slicks but not sure and not bothered. But its safe to assume it went a bit faster after loosing more weight and gaining more power. A 1:12 can't see any actual confirmation of that, just that it should do, I think its fair to say he'd be around 1:14 with the additional modifications he made. But this post he made in 2004 when he owned the CSL, when he posted mentioning 1:12 on Civinfo that was in 2012, so its possible with the above modifications, more practice, ideal conditions and on slicks maybe he did, but unless he categorically states he did lets not waste any more time worrying about it.

I think it is fair to say that is concrete evidence, no scrutiny to be done, the guys races in britcar, the link shows he is very well known, photos, blah blah blah.


P.S. What this does say is the guy in the video I posted earlier is Sy's car from CSL register his cars spec is stock engine, supersprint exhaust, intrax coilovers, AP brakes and Michelin cups, 1:18 is a good drive, as are the other guys I know who run CSL's too, but they have driven Donnington more than me. ;)
Here is Sy again doing that 1:18:-

Based on this research I have done I would say whilst I am on cup tyres the best I can hope for is a 1:18 with very good brakes and that would probably be a perfect lap and not driven by me, would have to give one of the CSL guys my keys. ;)
 
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my god there was a lot of repeating itself in this thread.

So from all that i can work out.

With bigger brakes, decent coilovers and mich cups, gibbos m3 or a csl should do a 1.18

Blades car on full slicks with more power and less weight will do about a 1.14

gibbos brake fliud cooked and has replaced it, now hopes to run about a 1.20 until he goes AP/ALCON

He should have video footage any donnington when his brakes are up to it in a couple weeks time hopefully proving that time with another driver.

I will probably catch up with him in end of april to see if we can both get on track together and ill film him from behind to verify how quick his car is


I think that about covers it, as much as I love reading about lap times I think we should move onto something else.

Im guessing the next update is your lightweight boot back?
 
my god there was a lot of repeating itself in this thread.

So from all that i can work out.

With bigger brakes, decent coilovers and mich cups, gibbos m3 or a csl should do a 1.18

Blades car on full slicks with more power and less weight will do about a 1.14

gibbos brake fliud cooked and has replaced it, now hopes to run about a 1.20 until he goes AP/ALCON

He should have video footage any donnington when his brakes are up to it in a couple weeks time hopefully proving that time with another driver.

I will probably catch up with him in end of april to see if we can both get on track together and ill film him from behind to verify how quick his car is


I think that about covers it, as much as I love reading about lap times I think we should move onto something else.

Im guessing the next update is your lightweight boot back?

I think a 1:22 with fixed brakes, 1:20 with APs or Alcons, any faster, put someone else in the car. ;)

Yes bootlid is being fitted, should collect it tomorrow or next week. :)
Then fitting wheel bearing, bleed nipples and re-bleeding brakes again, plus oil change maintenance work.

Other planned mods is an AP brake kit and some lightweight under-drive pulleys.

Then make interior nice, thin carpet, door cards etc.

ENJOY THE CAR! :D

Maybe next year, cage and slicks, but we will see. :)
 
You really should use a cage if you are harnessed in a proper seat, and by the sounds of it are going to be chasing times.

If you roll the car at speed a harness and fixed seat by design hold you in position, which means if you roll and the pillars fail you have no room for getting moved in your seat if you come in contact with the ground like you would with a normal belt and seat (I.e side to side as the roof compresses) just something to think about, a cage must only be around £1500 fitted and is pretty vital if you are going to be pushing the limits.
 
You really should use a cage if you are harnessed in a proper seat, and by the sounds of it are going to be chasing times.

If you roll the car at speed a harness and fixed seat by design hold you in position, which means if you roll and the pillars fail you have no room for getting moved in your seat if you come in contact with the ground like you would with a normal belt and seat (I.e side to side as the roof compresses) just something to think about, a cage must only be around £1500 fitted and is pretty vital if you are going to be pushing the limits.

Yes I have tried contacting Simpsons about a rear cage install and cost, just waiting for feedback. Got a friend locally who did his own cage install so that's an option too if he has spare time but he is busy with university and re-building a 911 at moment.
 
Not listening again

Thanks, your post above proves what I was saying.

The 1.12 lap time was set by a CSL that was far from just "a bit of weight saving and suspension improvements" as you had originally wrongly claimed. It's a fully prep'd race car, racing in the Britcar series, which makes sense.
 
Thanks, your post above proves what I was saying.

The 1.12 lap time was set by a CSL that was far from just "a bit of weight saving and suspension improvements" as you had originally wrongly claimed. It's a fully prep'd race car, racing in the Britcar series, which makes sense.

Easy to do, infact Tony the owner has emailed me with full details of his EVO, CSL, times etc. If he is OK with it I will post his response here and it can be the end of it as it will be facts, not just what someone said on the internets or what a mate said in the pub or someone just made up. :)

Will DG go under the same scrutiny I wonder to prove his 1:19 claim for a regular EVO without big power or track/race prepared on road tyres? As do you believe that is possible, from my experience it seems incredible unlikely and you seem pretty clued up so what is your thinking on that claim?
 
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