Kyle Rittenhouse - teen who shot three people in Kenosha

[C Kent]

Do you know exactly why the first man was chasing Kyle?

Let's go with your initial assumption shall we that Rittenhouse was 'waiving his gun' around (bear in mind open carry is legal in Wisconsin), does that give someone the right to chase after the guy carrying the weapon and act in a threatening manner to them?

Also, there is nothing illogical about what i have said.

I think your definition is self defence is certainly illogical but that's irrelevant.

 

[Jono8]

Let's go with your initial assumption shall we that Rittenhouse was waiving his gun around (bear in mind open carry is legal in Wisconsin), does that give someone the right to chase after the guy carrying the weapon and act in a threatening manner to them?

Well apparently its ok that he shot the man waving his gun around coming towards him so....you tell me.

 

[dowie]

Incorrect.
i'm fully confident of the arguments i have made thanks. So much so that they dont need repeating in tedium to you.

If anyone else can highlight where Jono8 has highlighted a double standard by me in relation to this case either today or yesterday then please do post it here, I've not seen him address that point with anything specific nor the other direct questions asked of him. Bit ironic to spend multiple posts deflecting instead of simply posting the example of the thing you said was obvious.

 

[AORUS]

Incorrect you can join the military in the US and start training at 17

17-year-old applicants require parental consent so teen soldier in US Army! Now I know why some many are teen killers thanks

 

[C Kent]

Well apparently its ok that he shot the man waving his gun around coming towards him so....you tell me.

He shot the guy that chased him and threatened his life, I think he (Rittenhouse) was perfectly within his rights to do that.

Your turn, do you think dead guy no 1 was acting in Self defence chasing after someone that was moving away and had his back turned from him?

 

[Jono8]

If anyone else can highlight where Jonon8 has highlighted a double standard by me then please do post it here, I've not seen him address that point with anything specific nor the other direct questions asked of him. Bit ironic to spend multiple posts deflecting instead of simply posting the example of the thing you said was obvious.

What is ironic about it? We are all completely wasting our time doing this as no one is changing their minds anyway.

I just like to see how deep you go (ooo er matron)

 

[dowie]

What is ironic about it? We are all completely wasting our time doing this as no one is changing their minds anyway.

I just like to see how deep you go (ooo er matron)

Sure, seems like just more excuses - seems you like to deflect to avoid scrutiny of your vague arguments and the claims you throw in that you can't back up.

He shot the guy that chased him and threatened his life, I think he (Rittenhouse) was perfectly within his rights to do that.

Your turn, do you think dead guy no 1 was acting in Self defence chasing after someone that was moving away and had his back turned from him?

Also... suppose everyone accepts, for the sake of argument, that that guy has some good reason to chase Kyle... then what? Does that nullify Kyle's right to defend himself when attacked/when the guy apparently made a grab for his rifle?

The guy is dead, as is the second guy and the third person shot hasn't been charged/isn't on trial. In fact, the third guy has tried to provide some justification for his actions while testifying but also confirmed he pointed his gun at Kyle immediately prior to being shot and that he wasn't shot initially, had his hands up, Kyle pointing his rifle at him and not shooting.

 

[Jono8]

Your turn, do you think dead guy no 1 was acting in Self defence chasing after someone that was moving away and had his back turned from him?

I have no idea and neither do you. Perhaps something was said. Perhaps Kyle threatened him? Perhaps weapons were pointed at him (there are reports that he shouted to not point weapons at him). I often think there is no smoke without fire. Why was Kyle solely targeted and not any of the other armed militia? I realise that just because he was singled out, it doesn't mean he did anything wrong. But equally there could be a very good reason for why Kyle got himself embroiled in this.

If that is the case, perhaps he felt he needed to disarm Kyle to feel safe? Perhaps his intention was to disarm him so he could no longer threaten him with the rifle? That seems like a more peaceful solution than just shooting someone (which is what Kyle resorted to seemingly every time).

99.9% of the time it takes two to tango....

 

[Vulcan]

I have no idea and neither do you. Perhaps something was said. Perhaps Kyle threatened him? Perhaps weapons were pointed at him (there are reports that he shouted to not point weapons at him). I often think there is no smoke without fire. Why was Kyle solely targeted and not any of the other armed militia? I realise that just because he was singled out, it doesn't mean he did anything wrong. But equally there could be a very good reason for why Kyle got himself embroiled in this.

If that is the case, perhaps he felt he needed to disarm Kyle to feel safe? Perhaps his intention was to disarm him so he could no longer threaten him with the rifle? That seems like a more peaceful solution than just shooting someone (which is what Kyle resorted to seemingly every time).

If Kyle did threaten him, then Rosenbaum should have retreated, instead, he committed an offensive move by advancing, that's not self defence.

 

[Jono8]

If Kyle did threaten him, then Rosenbaum should have retreated, instead, he committed an offensive move by advancing, that's not self defence.

A more offensive move than shooting someone!?

 

[Vulcan]

A more offensive move than shooting someone!?

Yes, because Kyle retreated, then fired when he felt he had to.

 

[AORUS]

Does that nullify Kyle's right to defend himself when attacked/when the guy apparently made a grab for his rifle?.

Why bring a rifle to a peaceful protest! And why would Gaige Grosskreutz who calm carrying medical supplies as well as a loaded pistol what was the pistol for!

 

[dowie]

Why was Kyle solely targeted and not any of the other armed militia? I realise that just because he was singled out, it doesn't mean he did anything wrong. But equally there could be a very good reason for why Kyle got himself embroiled in this.

Firstly he was cut off from his other armed buddies as the police line had moved secondly it's been said that he put out a bin fire which upset him:

https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2020/09/08/kyle-rittenhouse-fire-extinguisher/

Two eyewitnesses interviewed by Wisconsin Right Now say Rosenbaum was enraged because Rittenhouse, and others, were using fire extinguishers to put out an arson fire in a dumpster that Rosenbaum, and others, were trying to push toward police squad cars.

You're either selectively ignoring things here or you're perhaps unaware of some of the evidence.

If that is the case, perhaps he felt he needed to disarm Kyle to feel safe? Perhaps his intention was to disarm him so he could no longer threaten him with the rifle? That seems like a more peaceful solution than just shooting someone (which is what Kyle resorted to seemingly every time).

LOL sure... but supposing that is true - so what? From Kyle's perspective, you still have this crazy guy chasing and attacking him who had caught him alone and who had literally stated earlier:

“If I catch any of you guys alone tonight I'm going to ****ing kill you!”

then when he caught up with Kyle, the closest eye witness has testified:

"Well, he said '**** you' and he reached for the weapon."
But let's assume there was good reason in his mind for him to chase Kyle and he did it to make himself "feel safe" as you've proposed... then what?

 

[Jono8]

Yes, because Kyle retreated, then fired when he felt he had to.

I'm sorry but this is where i disagree. Lets for arguments sake say Kyle did threaten Rosenbaum with his weapon/point it at him. Ok, so he walked away but like i pointed out earlier that hardly can put anyone at ease because he is carrying a long range weapon.

Based on what you have said, you think that it would have been justified for Rosenbaum to shoot him in that moment if he had a gun (perhaps at the moment Kyle threatened him with his weapon), but you dont think its justified for Rosenbaum to try to disarm him?

 

[dowie]

Why bring a rifle to a peaceful protest! And why would Gaige Grosskreutz who calm carrying medical supplies as well as a loaded pistol what was the pistol for!

He wasn't attending the protest he was standing with a group apparently looking out for a local business (or so they claim) and had the weapon for self defence. The other guy with a firearm seems to have a similar reason for carrying; self-defence.

That they both seem to have been carrying illegally is perhaps moot re: anything else that occurred as it's 'merica and no one else necessarily knows they're illegally carrying those weapons.

 

[Vulcan]

I'm sorry but this is where i disagree. Lets for arguments sake say Kyle did threaten Rosenbaum with his weapon/point it at him. Ok, so he walked away but like i pointed out earlier that hardly can put anyone at ease because he is carrying a long range weapon.

Based on what you have said, you think that it would have been justified for Rosenbaum to shoot him in that moment if he had a gun (perhaps at the moment Kyle threatened him with his weapon), but you dont think its justified for Rosenbaum to try to disarm him?

There is generally a duty to retreat where stand your ground doesn't exist. At no point is Rosenbaum seen retreating. Instead we have footage of him, the suicidal man, being confrontational and trying to instigate. Then we see him chasing and throwing things at Kyle, instigating.

Meanwhile, we see plenty of evidence of Kyle retreating, or trying to, and have no evidence of this hypothetical "what if Kyle pointed his weapon", "what if Kyle said something".

 

[dowie]

There is generally a duty to retreat where stand your ground doesn't exist. At no point is Rosenbaum seen retreating. Instead we have footage of him, the suicidal man, being confrontational and trying to instigate. Then we see him chasing and throwing things at Kyle, instigating.

This is also interesting - this suicidal guy who made explicit death threats if he caught any of them alone, then did indeed catch one of them alone, is seen with a chain moments before the encounter - not sure if he still had it on him or not when the initial incident between him and Kyle took place:

https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2020/09/09/joseph-rosenbaum-chain/

Kyle's testimony, which apparently is going to happen, will certainly be very interesting.

 

[Jono8]

There is generally a duty to retreat where stand your ground doesn't exist. At no point is Rosenbaum seen retreating. Instead we have footage of him, the suicidal man, being confrontational and trying to instigate. Then we see him chasing and throwing things at Kyle, instigating.

But there is still the report of him saying "“Don't point no XXXXXXXX gun at me!

Which, could imply he was threatened and had guns pointed at him. Therefore some peoples reasoning in this thread, if he had a gun too, he would have been justified in shooting those that had pointed the gun at him?

Again, we don't know. Maybe he just said that because he was crazy, but i think its important to keep an open mind about this, rather than assume Kyle was an angel and that Rosenbaum was completely unprovoked.

 

[Vulcan]

This is also interesting - this suicidal guy who made explicit death threats if he caught any of them alone, then did indeed catch one of them alone, is seen with a chain moments before the encounter - not sure if he still had it on him or not when the initial incident between him and Kyle took place:

https://www.wisconsinrightnow.com/2020/09/09/joseph-rosenbaum-chain/

Kyle's testimony, which apparently is going to happen, will certainly be very interesting.

Doesn't surprise me, the guy was unhinged and looking for trouble... well he found it.

Which, could imply he was threatened and had guns pointed at him. Therefore some peoples reasoning in this thread, if he had a gun too, he would have been justified in shooting those that had pointed the gun at him?

Potentially if it did happen, but lacks evidence it did.

Again, we don't know. Maybe he just said that because he was crazy, but i think its important to keep an open mind about this, rather than assume Kyle was an angel and that Rosenbaum was completely unprovoked.

Actually we do assume Kyle is an angel, because it's innocent until proven guilty, and right now all the evidence is stacked in favour Kyle acting in self defence, with the evidence pointing towards Rosenbaum being the aggressor. Until the counter is shown, that's the narrative.

 

[dowie]

Update - the judge has dismissed the curfew violation charge on the basis that the prosecution has presented no evidence there even was a curfew! That's pretty dodgy of them - I'd assumed that surely that's pretty basic, pretty much took it as that and the weapons charge being the ones with the highest chance he'd be convicted. didn't consider that they'd just either make up a charge or simply not present any evidence for it.

I think the defence for the weapon's charge is going to be some convoluted 2nd amendment stuff or an attempt to use some sort of hunting exemption etc.. which all, at face value, seems a bit sus but that's 'merica...

They do seem to have some solid defences for the three shooting-related charges though. The witness/attacker in the third incident has helped them with that one., the first one seems clear enough too it might be the second incident that is riskiest though.

But there is still the report of him saying "“Don't point no XXXXXXXX gun at me!

See this is why specifics are often needed, he said that or rather “Don’t point no mother ****ing gun at me!” and “Shoot me” at the convenience store, along with the "n word" as in "shoot me [n-word]" which he repeated multiple times. There is video footage of that encounter, there were multiple armed people and he was the belligerent one there, which you'd see quite easily if you simply watch the video instead of imagining what might be implied by reading a single quote etc..