Kyle Rittenhouse - teen who shot three people in Kenosha

He multiple times didn't kill people when he could have - no Charles Bronson nut. More likely a foolish kid who should have stayed at home.



Where exactly is this safe retreat?

Lets not pretend that Rosenbaum is the only potential threat to Rittenhouse - as he runs towards those parked cars there are other people there, loosely part of the same crowd as Rosenbaum, who could have intercepted him if they were so inclined [allowing Rosenbaum to catch up even if those other people themselves weren't a direct threat], shortly before the first shooting a gunshot was fired from the direction Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum were running from, more people were running towards Rittenhouse along the same direction they'd come from and to the opposite side more people connected to the protestors were walking down the road:

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This has already been gone over yesterday. Its been shown there were plenty of other ways he could run, and I don't think the fact there were other protesters there is any sort of argument.

That's basically saying " I turned and shot him because I just assumed all the other people there were out to get me too so didn't want to continue my retreat further ". That doesn't speak well to his mindest/come across as a reasonable action.
 
This thread or some posters in this thread so remind me of the Derek Chauvin thread. We had many armchair lawyers in there telling people they didn't understand the case or the law. What is clear as day is that if anyone has a perfect understanding of the law they'd have a law degree and would be a lawyer. Also I have seen several legal commentators point out, no one except those present in court know how the jury reacted to the evidence and witnesses presented before them, we only know how we reacted. It clearly isn't an open and shut case as many in here believe as we are now days into deliberations. If they come back with guilty I'm expecting Chauvin levels of outrage in here, though I don't expect a guilty verdict on the most serious charges.

Indeed.

I really don't know which way this will go. I can appreciate the arguments both side (but I personally agree with much of the prosecution's arguments)

If guilty I'd be surprised if its for everything (especially the intentional one).
 
The problem is, as soon as you actually sit and read the jury instructions (which you absolutely have to do, if you're going to argue an opinion over this) it's actually pretty clear; He can only use lethal force to prevent imminent death, or great bodily harm - that's the bottom line.

I just don't see that anywhere in the footage, being chased, shouted at - having things thrown at him, being kicked - I don't think any of that reasonably constitues 'imminent death' or 'great bodily harm'

If somebody drove a car at him, lunged with a knife or pointed a gun - then there would be a clear legitimate argument to imminent death, but none of that is present here - or if it is, somebody has to point out exactly where because I haven't seen any evidence of it.
 
The problem is, as soon as you actually sit and read the jury instructions (which you absolutely have to do, if you're going to argue an opinion over this) it's actually pretty clear; He can only use lethal force to prevent imminent death, or great bodily harm - that's the bottom line.

I just don't see that anywhere in the footage, being chased, shouted at - having things thrown at him, being kicked - I don't think any of that reasonably constitues 'imminent death' or 'great bodily harm'

If somebody drove a car at him, lunged with a knife or pointed a gun - then there would be a clear legitimate argument to imminent death, but none of that is present here - or if it is, somebody has to point out exactly where because I haven't seen any evidence of it.

He did get a gun pointed at him for the final shooting. This was after Kyle pointed his rifle at them, and then started to lower it though. Its a bit of a tit for tat situation that one, but again it was only Kyle that resorted to using deadly force.

It's probably the one he has the biggest self defense claim for taken on its own. However, then you have the whole , what came first, the chicken or the egg scenario in that if he didn't act lawfully in the first , 2nd and 3rd shootings, did he lose his right to self defence against someone trying to stop him/disarm for the 4th?

It's what makes the case so complex.
 
That is an over simplification. You get people all the time with deep knowledge of a subject, with or without relevant qualification, who for various reasons don't work in that field.

I think there is possibly 1 poster in this thread who might work in law. Criminal law in this particular state isn’t something I think anyone in this thread has a deep knowledge of. In the same way no one had a deep knowledge of criminal law in Minnesota in the Chauvin thread. Didn’t stop the same amount of armchair lawyers from claiming things that that jury took the exact opposite view of. These cases are always far more complicated than people would have us believe. There is nothing wrong with commenting on whether you think the law should allow this or not allow that but the idea anyone has a deep understanding of the law here is laughable.
 
I don't think any of that reasonably constitues 'imminent death' or 'great bodily harm'


So you dont think that a 17 year old, being chased by a jacked 36 year old who, just threatened to kill him, and continues to chase him even after backing off once, and lunges at him even though hes holding a gun, constitutes the potential of great bodily harm?

Because if I was in that situation, I would be expecting to get the snot beaten out of me at a minimum.
 
There is nothing wrong with commenting on whether you think the law should allow this or not allow that but the idea anyone has a deep understanding of the law here is laughable.

What gets me, is everyone claiming how absurd/ridiculous/stupid the prosecution's arguments (and by extension anyone who may agree with some of them) are.

It implies they know Wisconsin law and prosecuting a case such as this as an ADA, far more than the actual ADA.
 
The problem is, as soon as you actually sit and read the jury instructions (which you absolutely have to do, if you're going to argue an opinion over this) it's actually pretty clear; He can only use lethal force to prevent imminent death, or great bodily harm - that's the bottom line.

I just don't see that anywhere in the footage, being chased, shouted at - having things thrown at him, being kicked - I don't think any of that reasonably constitues 'imminent death' or 'great bodily harm'

If somebody drove a car at him, lunged with a knife or pointed a gun - then there would be a clear legitimate argument to imminent death, but none of that is present here - or if it is, somebody has to point out exactly where because I haven't seen any evidence of it.

Someone threatened to kill him and a gunshot went off behind him?
 
What gets me, is everyone claiming how absurd/ridiculous/stupid the prosecution's arguments (and by extension anyone who may agree with some of them) are.

It implies they know Wisconsin law and prosecuting a case such as this as an ADA, far more than the actual ADA.

And what gets me, is how quickly the charges were filed when the ADA didnt even have all the evidence at the time.

This prosecution was a knee jerk reaction to the political clown fiesta going on at the time and they have been trying to fit the alleged crime to the actions of the night, and when it became clear how weak the case was, they added a bunch of other charges to try and get something to stick.

Its a political trial and a stitch up.
 
This prosecution was a knee jerk reaction to the political clown fiesta going on at the time and they have been trying to fit the alleged crime to the actions of the night, and when it became clear how weak the case was, they added a bunch of other charges to try and get something to stick.

Its a political trial and a stitch up.

I don't believe this to be the case.
 
And what gets me, is how quickly the charges were filed when the ADA didnt even have all the evidence at the time.

This prosecution was a knee jerk reaction to the political clown fiesta going on at the time and they have been trying to fit the alleged crime to the actions of the night, and when it became clear how weak the case was, they added a bunch of other charges to try and get something to stick.

Its a political trial and a stitch up.
Any sane human taking a step back to look at what's gone on here can see that lots of bonkers events led up to this nonsense (kid LARPing with his mates gun, protestors going unchecked/creating damage). To determine whether it was structural and whether wider sweeping changes are required are the main outcomes of this. If he simply got 'OKAYed' in what he did, it'll set a dangerous, dangerous precedent.
 
He did get a gun pointed at him for the final shooting. This was after Kyle pointed his rifle at them, and then started to lower it though. Its a bit of a tit for tat situation that one, but again it was only Kyle that resorted to using deadly force.


Are you talking about the guy with a pistol?
If so. You have it all wrong according to the video.
 
He did get a gun pointed at him for the final shooting. This was after Kyle pointed his rifle at them, and then started to lower it though. Its a bit of a tit for tat situation that one, but again it was only Kyle that resorted to using deadly force.

So that's the attempted first / second degree homicide on count 5, (I was specifically only talking about the actual homicides, but I take your point)

Given the fact that Huber had just been shot. In his testimony Grosskreutz says he had just witnessed Rittenhouse shoot Huber at point blank range, and missed the other guy (dropkick guy) which is why he approached him with a gun. I think it's going to come down to whether the jury believe that Rittenhouse was defending himself, or Grosskreutz was responding to Rittenhouse shooting somebody (provocation). But honestly, wouldn't like to call that one.

It feels a bit ridiculous, when you have people running around with loaded firearms, then trying to apply an overly optimised legal system to all of it, after a bunch of people get killed - then expect some sort of coherant outcome :p

So you dont think that a 17 year old, being chased by a jacked 36 year old who, just threatened to kill him, and continues to chase him even after backing off once, and lunges at him even though hes holding a gun, constitutes the potential of great bodily harm?

Well, the bottom line is that Rosenbaum was unarmed and Rittenhouse had a rifle.

Bearing in mind the victim was unarmed - there isn't that much he could have realistically done to inflict great bodily harm or kill him. There might have been a struggle, Rittenhouse might have ended up getting a bit of a beating - but in reality, I just don't see the 'massive danger' coming from Rosenbaum, that required the use of lethal force to resolve, and that's the deciding factor.

You don't get to use lethal force, because you *might get hurt* you only get to use lethal force, if your life is absolutely in imminent danger.

Someone threatened to kill him and a gunshot went off behind him?

The fact that he's armed to the teeth with a semi-automatic rifle, do you not think it's a bit silly for him to worry about what people are shouting at him? That's part of the responsibility of owning and using these types of weapons, you don't just go off at the drop of a hat and shoot to kill, because you get a bit scared about what someone is shouting.

Because Rittenhouse was a little delicate and fragile, got scared and didn't have the training or intelligence to be in that situation with a weapon like that, is his problem.
 
The problem is, as soon as you actually sit and read the jury instructions (which you absolutely have to do, if you're going to argue an opinion over this) it's actually pretty clear; He can only use lethal force to prevent imminent death, or great bodily harm - that's the bottom line..


Who told you that?
 
Well, the bottom line is that Rosenbaum was unarmed and Rittenhouse had a rifle.

Its not the bottom line though is it?

Rosenbaum had made explicit threats to kill Kyle, and then started to act on those threats. And its not like he was some scrawny keyboard warrior, he was someone who had done serious time and was built accordingly.

there isn't that much he could have realistically done to inflict great bodily harm or kill him

Lol are you for real? People can be killed from a single punch to the head. He doesnt have to take that bodily harm to need to defend himself, he just needs the genuine belief it is going to happen, and with a guy like Rosenbaum coming at you after making threats, that can be a very understandable belief to have when hes close enough to get his hands on your gun.

ittenhouse might have ended up getting a bit of a beating - but in reality, I just don't see the 'massive danger' coming from Rosenbaum

Nah, just that guy telling him he was gonna kill him then starting to chase him. No threat there. :rolleyes:


just go off at the drop of a hat and shoot to kill

Turned the first time with a good distance. Rosenbaum backs off. Kyle turns around and continues running, Rosenbaum starts chasing him and closing the distance. At the time Rosenbaum continued the chase it was all on him at that point.

You don't get to use lethal force, because you *might get hurt* you only get to use lethal force, if your life is absolutely in imminent danger.

Like the guy being close enough to put his hand on the barrel of your gun, after chasing you down, after threatening to kill you.
 
I have not. That is what happened.

Wrong AGAIN.

In the trial it was said and shown that the guy with the gun who was running up to Kyle with his gun drawn.
Went to aim it at Kyle. Then Kyle aimed he gun at him. But DID NOT fire. The guy moved his gun to the right.

Then the pistol done a sneaky thing and aimed the gun at Kyle. Kyle then shot him.
 
...

Well, the bottom line is that Rosenbaum was unarmed and Rittenhouse had a rifle.

Bearing in mind the victim was unarmed - there isn't that much he could have realistically done to inflict great bodily harm or kill him...

None of the above has any basis in reality.

People get killed all the time by unarmed people.
 
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