Lazy people at work

Ev0 · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:18

iDroid84 said:
Even if someone is capable, it's no excuse for a 3rd line tier to do their own job. It takes a lot of pressure of tier 1 / tier 2 for starters.

But we don't know what the 3rd line person's job is in this case, what's in his job desc etc.

We've not been told that the things Groen is doing is definitely what this chap should be doing, just that Groen thinks he should be.

groen said:
I think everyone has that attitude. But what i meant was that he does not care to keep the servers or clients up to date or do any maintenance that is not specifically requested. Like updating epo or prtg, he will never initiate work that is not specifically requested of him, even if will cause problems down the road, he does not care. I take more of a pro active approach and i like to keep things up to date and optimised etc. He just leaves it all a mess, until something breaks.

Out of interest when you update something like ePO, what's the process? Do you just do it, or does a formal change request get raised, looked at, approved, then passed for the work to be done?

Gilly · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:21

iDroid84 said:
Even if someone is capable, it's no excuse for a 3rd line tier to not do their own job. It takes a lot of pressure of tier 1 / tier 2 for starters.

If 2nd line have permissions and are capable and knowledgeable I don't think it's a 3rd line role.

Delvis said:
I used to ask colleagues to help if I was over loaded...But then agian my boss used to say to me 'Just tell someone if your are having trouble or there are too many calls'...

Isn't hard...sounds like the companys a bit odd tbh

That's the thing. If you have the boss's say-so to do that and someone pushes it back at you, then you have some form of comeback. If you don't have that, then you're just being arsey.

groen said:
I think everyone has that attitude. But what i meant was that he does not care to keep the servers or clients up to date or do any maintenance that is not specifically requested. Like updating epo or prtg, he will never initiate work that is not specifically requested of him, even if will cause problems down the road, he does not care. I take more of a pro active approach and i like to keep things up to date and optimised etc. He just leaves it all a mess, until something breaks.

I don't either. Unless there's a critical or OOB patch released we don't update any of our estate unless specifically requested to do so. If we turned on automatic updates on anything we'd get sacked.

Well, they're not external facing so it wouldn't work, but you get the picture.

aln · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:22

Cuchulain said:
how can you be 1st AND 2nd line support, what do you tell customers? "I'll escalate that from me to me .."

Its quite common.

You'll work on an esculated queue, and in the event that you run out of 2nd line work you'll move onto the 1st line queue. Similarly you'll answer phone, but be able to do a greater number of tasks without escalating.

Generally this is done when there is more 1st line work than 2nd line work, and not enough people to effectively manage call queues.

At one point I was expected to do 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Developer until the point that new support workers were sourced, which quite some time at the crappy wages and over inflated skillsets they were hiring for.

Deleted member 77746 · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:22

There's a possible chance there's a little miss management. I no exactly what tier 1 / tier 2 / tier 3 should exactly be dealing with in my organization. This would be a start where your management needs to clarify this with your 'team'.

Delvis · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:29

Gilly said:
That's the thing. If you have the boss's say-so to do that and someone pushes it back at you, then you have some form of comeback. If you don't have that, then you're just being arsey.

That's upto the managers etc to implment then if it isn't implemented...

They either need to get to gether (both 'lower' line guys) and say they both get over loaded at times, and that would it be possible to sometimes divert the phones or ask the other guy when around what he can pick up (if all his other tickets and maintenance are up to date)

anything I don't mind · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:31

What do you use for your ticket system? Why isn't everything documented so that he CAN pick up the ticket say if your absent etc?...I've learned to literally document everything on a ticket, it covers your back as well as becomes a source for reference

He refuses to work on any tickets that come through and never opens the call logging software. I think he has had like two or three tickets in his name in the last 8 months. I can't possibly document the issues with the server upgrade because it would be about, two pages of writing and then i might as well do it myself.

If 2nd line have permissions and are capable and knowledgeable I don't think it's a 3rd line role.

That is why i took the angle of asking him if he could help out a bit.

Out of interest when you update something like ePO, what's the process? Do you just do it, or does a formal change request get raised, looked at, approved, then passed for the work to be done?

For big changes we have to do a change request form and get it signed off, but for epo i just asked the boss if i could do it and just did it, as that does not affect anything. For prtg i just did it because that is just for monitoring servers and does not affect anything else. They are not super strict about change requests as other places but big changes need to go through the right processes.

Wizzkidy · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:31

This happens in every company, We have the same issues. I like to be able to do 3rd line work but its when you ask for help that your made out to be the fool that doesn't know. Well sorry for not knowing that part of whatever it is!

This is common in most medium / large companys.

Shift to the left is a very good idea and I promote this sort of working but there comes a point when me being in 2nd line can only deal with so much.

And then they decide to place me on a whole project on my own to go build a full domain in london, go fiqure, takes me a good few days I go back to the office and no one has touched my 25 calls I was working on before I went away

Have to deal with the crap pay and the non working as a team on a daily basis i'm afraid.

Delvis · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:37

groen said:
He refuses to work on any tickets that come through and never opens the call logging software. I think he has had like two or three tickets in his name in the last 8 months. I can't possibly document the issues with the server upgrade because it would be about, two pages of writing and then i might as well do it myself.

So what software do you use?

I'd personally confront your boss if its affecting your work load that much, and hopefully get your other colleague in as well...And if the software supports it, runa report on the amount of resolved and open tickets on each user.

I know 3rd line will have less ticket due to the nature of the role, but seriously...if he is actually refusing to do work...?

That or just assign stuff to him, and document on the ticket why you cant do it...

So why cant you document what you have and haven't done? Just brief it....'Done x y and z, still the same issue...'...? =/

Gilly · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:37

You can bet that the vast majority of people that have been through 3rd line have dealt with the 2nd line/being dumped on situation at some point.

Dj_Jestar · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:39

It still amazes me today that despite the clear evidence that having 1st/2nd/3rd/.../54th "line" staff is crap, nobody recognises it as so.

In the OPs example, the "3rd liner" is not doing much, whilst the OP is doing seemingly too much - this divide of 1st/2nd/3rd is the only reason why the "nth liner" considers himself above it, or at best outside of it.

More importantly, the stuff the "3rd liner" does/supposed to do is the sorta thing you want quick feedback from the end users on, and not have it buried 3 levels deep in what is nothing more than red-tape bureaucracy.

Ask a Manager to ask if someone else is busy... why is the manager even needed? Is the person incapable of asking/answering such a simple question? Why is it considered "rude" for someone to ask for help, or if they have observed you doing FA, asking you to help with something that is normally outside your remit?

It's all hairy testicles because some plank who isn't even involved wrote down the idea, thought "yeah that seems logical" without considering the real world implications and suddenly it is company policy.

Delvis · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:39

Gilly said:
You can bet that the vast majority of people that have been through 3rd line have dealt with the 2nd line/being dumped on situation at some point.

Indeed....but you cant just say 'no you do it all' when theyre quite clearly struggling...

As I say, if its stopping you from doing other tasks, and it then causes issue (such as backups etc) then something needs to be said

Ev0 · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:42

Dj_Jestar said:
It still amazes me today that despite the clear evidence that having 1st/2nd/3rd/.../54th "line" staff is crap, nobody recognises it as so.

Very true, it's never as black and white as 1st/2nd/3rd etc, unless all you do is answer phones and log calls/first time fix stuff

Delvis · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:44

Ev0 said:
Very true, it's never as black and white as 1st/2nd/3rd etc.

Indeed...I prefer the 'take tickets as they come in' if you get stuck, move them along to someone who knows'

Basically the same thing, but more relaxed

edscdk · 13 Jan 2011 at 15:46

groen said:
Sure in some places where i have worked as a 1st line guy only, i would not dream of going to the 3rd line guys and telling them to do more work. But in this current job, there is only 100 users and no other IT departments.

Some places where i have worked most of what i do was restricted to 3rd line, so that whole 1st/2nd/3rd line non sense just is not clean cut.

probably a typical lazy, know nothing, supposed IT support person... if the company is that small there is no need for didicated 3rd line anyway...

fit him up with something to get him sacked and make sure they employee someone decent next time...

I am paid to turn up to work, I work 7.5 hours, if I have nothing to do I will do (almost) anything required... I'm 3rd line but I have no issue creating user or cleaning the office or anything.... anyone brings their PC in I'll fix that... paper shredding? ill do that.... What ever the boss asks be to do I will (within reason again) as I am paid to be here and it does not matter if some times I make the tea or shred the paper... (more fool them if they want to pay me so much money to shred paper)

Will Gill · 13 Jan 2011 at 16:15

When I worked in third line I did bugger all, I slaved in first & second line to get there so always aspired to be a lazy teflon shouldered black art master. When the bosses required justification for my headcount I could rattle off trillions of tasks I had completed. I automated all of them whilst in second line creating some of the greatest storage and san scripts - work from home, feet up, choose which shiney item to purchase next.

If you think third line is bad wait till you manage a data centre, bliss!

LordSplodge · 13 Jan 2011 at 16:19

There is somebody at our work (2nd line) who loves to stick his nose it work that is above his pay grade (including project work). Writing reports, doing server work and so on whilst neglecting his job and that throwing a fit about being too busy and having nobody to help him.

If he did just his job then he'd be fine. He happens to be good at what he does.

So Groen how about doing your job rather than somebody else's? Oh and some paragraphs wouldn't go a miss!

thepeteh · 13 Jan 2011 at 16:21

Chaps, having worked in construction all my working life I've never encountered this 1st/2nd/3rd line lingo, could someone enlighten me please?

anything I don't mind · 13 Jan 2011 at 16:24

Basically in 1st line is meant to be answering the phone and doing quick fixes and then second line do all the work while 3rd line do nothing but pretend to be busy and crack jokes.

So Groen how about doing your job rather than somebody else's? Oh and some paragraphs wouldn't go a miss!

You having a laugh ? maybe you can tell me what is meant to be my job then, if i started saying stuff was not within my job spec then half the stuff would not get done on site and then who would get the blame ?

But yes i am going to try and push anything remotely project related to this other guy now and just stop caring. my sister says that i have out grown my job and i need to move on, maybe she is right. I just think the guy is lazy.

LordSplodge · 13 Jan 2011 at 16:29

groen said:
You having a laugh ? maybe you can tell me what is meant to be my job then, if i started saying stuff was not within my job spec then half the stuff would not get done on site and then who would get the blame ?

Is 3rd line you job? If not (and there is clearly somebody there who's job it is) then why are you doing it?

Either stop letting it bother you, work smarter (or work less) or move on like your sister said.

There is no point getting upset about others. You can't change them.

edscdk · 13 Jan 2011 at 16:32

Abraham said:
3rd line is usually there to handle the extremes of 2nd line and project/infrastructure stuff. If he hasn't got any project work, and you're not escalating anything to him, then you can't say he should be doing some of the more menial bits of your job. You should be escalating more work to him and doing the menial stuff yourself.

they only have 100 users, everyone should be mucking in, that way he will learn more, you dont need didicated 3rd line in a small company (unless you are supporting other companies).

If everyone does everything they if MR 3rd line drops dead tomorrow it does not matter (or if the boss finds the kid porn previously planted on his PC and boots him out)

100 users = no need for 3rd line, mr 3rd line probably knows squat anyway... thats why he does not want to help...