Lifting for gainzzz

[spoffle]

Impressive weight for sure, but there is a lot going on there.

First, the safety issues.

Seeing this confirms what I was saying in the gym rats thread regarding your shoulders. You are missing a LOT of external rotation, which is most likely due to tight pecs and has nothing to do with your size. As you come out of the hole it looks like your wrists are going to snap off. There are instructions on how to fix this in the mobility thread.

My wrists and shoulders felt fine in this squatting session, no soreness, though I have had wrist soreness before, and I have noticed that lately as I've packed on upper body mass around my chest and shoulders, that my arm mobility has decreased quite a noticeable amount.

You have the bar in a har bar position, and yet because of your shoulders you don't even start with your elbows under the bar. You have poor, rounded/collapsed thoracic positioning at the top of the rep, which is exacerbated by your forward head position. Because of the amount of forward lean you get as you descend (not ideal for high bar), the weight tends to move up towards your neck. This is causing upper back rounding, which is compounded by general spinal instability. From the bottom of the rep, your unstable lumbar is evident. I looks like you're having to straighten your spine to lock out, and if this is happening here then it's definitely happening on your deadlifts.

Is har bar a typo of high bar, or actually something else? My bar positioning is an odd one for me, as I seem to have quite a protuberant lower cervical spine, which can make high bar squatting very uncomfortable for me (not on my neck before some one says it!). My lower cervical spine seems to protude more than my traps do at the back.

It's also bad practice to drop into the bottom of the rep like that, particularly when you have the above problems. People do this to develop bounce out of the hole to make it easier, but without the right positions there is a price to pay. This is also why your calves were hurting.

I think it looks like I was dropping due to the slow ascent I was making, I have dropped before, and it usually results in me losing balance, and when I'm keeping tension I can usually hear it through the floor (as odd as that might sound).

Secondly, and I'll only say this tentatively due to the difficulty of judging from that camera angle, but you don't even look to be going that deep. It seems like your 180 set is perhaps at parallel, but then it gets progressively worse. I didn't expect that given your previous comments, although it is clear why you need weight on the bar to get to the depth you train at.

I thought the same thing from viewing the videos back, though my friend who I nearly always train with assured me that I was going full depth, and he's not the type to just humour me, or say something I want to hear. If I hadn't gone full depth he'd still be smack talking me about it now.

Additionally, he moved the camera up a bit each time to make sure he could quickly spot me if I needed it.

Your issue is not a weak lower back. It's that your spine moves, putting load far more load on your erectors/lower back muscles than should be present.

I definitely have a weak lower back, I am in no doubt about that as it's been an issue for me for as long as I can remember, whether that's an issue here is another matter, though as I've said, my weak lower back is more of an issue with dead lifting.

Though it seems you're suggesting I'm sort of squatting low bar but with the bar in high bar position, is that correct?

 

[spoffle]

From a quick look I'd say you're somewhere around the 20st mark

Around?

 

[Delvis]

From a quick look I'd say you're somewhere around the 20st mark

I'm about 14st mate for reference

 

[Chris1712]

Guesstimate 23-25st. You are a large fella!

 

[Deception]

Guesstimate 23-25st. You are a large fella!

Who, Delvis?

 

[Chris1712]

Who, Delvis?

Nothing but mass baby. Could be more tbh, definitely 150kg+.

 

[Delvis]

Dats one butt cheek for me

 

[BennyC]

I think it looks like I was dropping due to the slow ascent I was making,

That's not a slow ascent, that's a drop. Your decent accelerates. Sorry, but there's no two ways about it!

Whilst in the hole it should be controlled.

I would imagine that you are not currently capable of performing a paused squat due to the inability to control your descent. Please prove me wrong but these are just my observations

For reference:

Spoiler

Edit: meant descent.

 

[spoffle]

Ascent (going up), was very slow, I'm saying the descent looks very fast because of the contrast.

And yes, I can do paused squats, I have concentrically pressed up 185KG. If I was dropping, I'd lose my balance. With better camera angles, you'd see that it's not a bomb-out, but just looks fast by contrast.

 

[icecold]

I don't want to seem like a douche (although it's slightly inevitable), but I know what I'm talking about here. I see this stuff all of the time, you are not a special *********.

My wrists and shoulders felt fine in this squatting session, no soreness, though I have had wrist soreness before, and I have noticed that lately as I've packed on upper body mass around my chest and shoulders, that my arm mobility has decreased quite a noticeable amount.

It's irrelevant that you had no pain in this session. Your positioning is wrong and clearly limited by a lack of external rotation in your shoulders. There is a lot of information in the mobility thread for dealing with this.

Is har bar a typo of high bar, or actually something else? My bar positioning is an odd one for me, as I seem to have quite a protuberant lower cervical spine, which can make high bar squatting very uncomfortable for me (not on my neck before some one says it!). My lower cervical spine seems to protude more than my traps do at the back.

lol yes, high bar

Your protuberant cervical spine is related to your generally slumped and rounded thoracic posture, tight pecs and forward head position. These are all fixable.

Also, your bar position is too high to be low bar.

I think it looks like I was dropping due to the slow ascent I was making, I have dropped before, and it usually results in me losing balance, and when I'm keeping tension I can usually hear it through the floor (as odd as that might sound).

No

You're obviously dropping rapidly into the hole, it's very clear to see. The camera angle wouldn't change that. I don't know why you're even arguing this point. You're calves wouldn't hurt after squatting if you weren't smashing them like this.

I thought the same thing from viewing the videos back, though my friend who I nearly always train with assured me that I was going full depth, and he's not the type to just humour me, or say something I want to hear. If I hadn't gone full depth he'd still be smack talking me about it now.

Additionally, he moved the camera up a bit each time to make sure he could quickly spot me if I needed it.

It definitely looks like he's either humouring you or doesn't know what parallel is.

I'm aware the camera moved, but even taking that into account your depth isn't consistent.

I definitely have a weak lower back, I am in no doubt about that as it's been an issue for me for as long as I can remember, whether that's an issue here is another matter, though as I've said, my weak lower back is more of an issue with dead lifting.

I don't know how to explain this any differently.

Your lower back is just not the problem, even though that's where the discomfort is.

In general, your lumbar should remain in neutral throughout most movements, particularly loaded ones. It should be locked into neutral by a correctly activated core. This is how your body is supposed to work.

Your lumbar is NOT designed to support load when not in neutral, or undergo any movement when under load. If this happens, muscles and other soft tissue (including discs) that shouldn't be loaded get smashed.

It is axiomatically false to say that your lower back is weak in this situation, as it should be the job other other muscles to do the work.

Again, this is fixable, but you need to address the way you move and learn how to use your core. You also need to learn what a neutral spine feels like, because if you can't notice the movement that is very obvious then there is work to be done.

This problem in particular is an injury waiting to happen.

Though it seems you're suggesting I'm sort of squatting low bar but with the bar in high bar position, is that correct?

Basically, yes. The forward lean you get, coupled with your thoracic collapse, is increasing the forces on your spine.

 

[Serge]

It definitely looks like he's either humouring you or doesn't know what parallel is.

I was the cameraman in this instance and I can confirm that I wasn't humouring him. We've both always been advocates of full-depth squats as we don't understand the logic behind introducing an artificial pause half way through the ROM of an exercise outside of bragging rights to claim more weight has been lifted. I've always assumed parallel in terms of competition purposes to mean femur parallel to the floor, which can often give the appearance of below parallel if someone has a large enough posterior chain. Please correct me if this assertion is incorrect.

Given the limited space in my spare room upstairs, I couldn't really position the camera to the side so depth is pretty hard to ascertain from that angle, which is exacerbated by the size of Spoffle's legs meaning that naturally his depth will be anatomically higher than mine as there is less of a ROM limitation at the bottom when hamstring touches calf for me. If he did pause repetitions for instance, you wouldn't see a change in depth in comparison to those videos even if he lost tension at the bottom.

 

[Freefaller]

My thoughts:

Impressive weight, and there's no doubt you're a strong (if big!) guy - no doubt there at all. Lots of respect for that, especially at your age and your lack of experience.

However, please do stop contradicting/arguing with the experts (and by that I don't mean me), Icecold is a professional S&C coach, you're getting QUALITY advice from him for free. Leave the ego aside, you've proven that you're a strong chap, but you do have a lot of issues with your mobility, form and other little items that could cause issues long term, especially as you start to train more frequently. We've all have to drop big weights at some point and re-learn and get better.

WIth some help from us (icecold) you could get some amazing numbers up.

Please don't sweep aside the advice you've been given.

 

[spoffle]

My thoughts:

Impressive weight, and there's no doubt you're a strong (if big!) guy - no doubt there at all. Lots of respect for that, especially at your age and your lack of experience.

However, please do stop contradicting/arguing with the experts (and by that I don't mean me), Icecold is a professional S&C coach, you're getting QUALITY advice from him for free. Leave the ego aside, you've proven that you're a strong chap, but you do have a lot of issues with your mobility, form and other little items that could cause issues long term, especially as you start to train more frequently. We've all have to drop big weights at some point and re-learn and get better.

WIth some help from us (icecold) you could get some amazing numbers up.

Please don't sweep aside the advice you've been given.

There's no doubts about the advice I've been given at all, it's the assumptions that have been made from a bad video that are the parts I am arguing against, simply because the videos were/are bad due to limited space (as Serge said).

There's a difference with regards to that, as Serge can see first hand with his own eyes what's happening, without the issues of camera perspective getting in the way of things, it'd be a different matter if we were having this conversation in person post having see my lifts in person.

Especially the notion that I cannot not do paused or concentric reps (which is definitely not the case, and it's a case of it being no argument, I most certain can do concentric/pause squats and Serge has witnessed me do this), so naturally I am going to argue against points like that, as they further cement my view that the video itself isn't particularly good if people's conclusions from it are that I can't do paused reps.

You've also taken contention of these points as there being ego involved, which isn't the case at all, I'm aware of the faults I have with regards to form (shoulder mobility being the most obvious one that I notice myself just from squatting). However, I am unsure whether this is down to pec flexibility, as I would have difficulty bench pressing to depth with a narrow grip, correct? When I squeeze my arms together, it's my lats that are tight and feel like they are hindering my external rotation as well as my shoulders, rather than my pecs.

Also to note, I have put quite a bit of mass on my arms and chest recently, and I have noticed a reduction in flexibility in things like itching my back, I used to be able to easily touch my middle back with my arm over the back of head, which is not something I can currently do since the increase in mass.

I've got nothing to prove, there is no ego, and I'm just doing it for fun. That aside, the points I am discussing are more to properly zero in on what the issues are, as it seems to some extent that I have simply assumed my weak lower back has been getting in the way of my squats and dead lifts is based on how my lower back actually feels on a day to day basis.

Also, there's been no mention of dropping the weights either, so I'm not sure why you think I am refusing to and where the ego is coming in to it.

 

[icecold]

I was the cameraman in this instance and I can confirm that I wasn't humouring him. We've both always been advocates of full-depth squats as we don't understand the logic behind introducing an artificial pause half way through the ROM of an exercise outside of bragging rights to claim more weight has been lifted. I've always assumed parallel in terms of competition purposes to mean femur parallel to the floor, which can often give the appearance of below parallel if someone has a large enough posterior chain. Please correct me if this assertion is incorrect.

Well that's wrong. It's hip crease below knee, and I'm pretty sure Spoffle didn't go that deep. Being a bigger guy is not an excuse.

Given the limited space in my spare room upstairs, I couldn't really position the camera to the side so depth is pretty hard to ascertain from that angle, which is exacerbated by the size of Spoffle's legs meaning that naturally his depth will be anatomically higher than mine as there is less of a ROM limitation at the bottom when hamstring touches calf for me. If he did pause repetitions for instance, you wouldn't see a change in depth in comparison to those videos even if he lost tension at the bottom.

I did say that I wasn't sure about the depth because it's hard to tell from that angle.

There's no doubts about the advice I've been given at all, it's the assumptions that have been made from a bad video that are the parts I am arguing against, simply because the videos were/are bad due to limited space (as Serge said).

The only observation that's open to contention in your depth, as I said.

There's a difference with regards to that, as Serge can see first hand with his own eyes what's happening, without the issues of camera perspective getting in the way of things, it'd be a different matter if we were having this conversation in person post having see my lifts in person.

No disrespect to Serge intended, but he hasn't pointed out the things I mentioned so I'm not sure that he has much experience of noticing dysfunction and correcting peoples technique.

Depth pales in importance to the other things I mentioned, I think it was just funny considering the comments you made previously.

Especially the notion that I cannot not do paused or concentric reps (which is definitely not the case, and it's a case of it being no argument, I most certain can do concentric/pause squats and Serge has witnessed me do this), so naturally I am going to argue against points like that, as they further cement my view that the video itself isn't particularly good if people's conclusions from it are that I can't do paused reps.

Benny was saying that to illustrate the point about bouncing, which isn't diminished by you stating that you can pause a decent amount of weight. I'm sure you can, but I'd bet there would be even more compromise in your spinal stability.

You've also taken contention of these points as there being ego involved, which isn't the case at all, I'm aware of the faults I have with regards to form (shoulder mobility being the most obvious one that I notice myself just from squatting). However, I am unsure whether this is down to pec flexibility, as I would have difficulty bench pressing to depth with a narrow grip, correct? When I squeeze my arms together, it's my lats that are tight and feel like they are hindering my external rotation as well as my shoulders, rather than my pecs.

You may be aware of SOME of the faults in your lifting, but you seem to have a hard time accepting that your point of view is incorrect and love arguing despite your limited knowledge and experience This doesn't bode well for continued progress.

Stretch your lats too if they're tight, but it's your pecs that are more directly limiting external rotation in that position. The resources in the mobility thread include diagnostic tools.

Also to note, I have put quite a bit of mass on my arms and chest recently, and I have noticed a reduction in flexibility in things like itching my back, I used to be able to easily touch my middle back with my arm over the back of head, which is not something I can currently do since the increase in mass.

Yes, so you're missing internal and external rotation due to tight pecs.

I've got nothing to prove, there is no ego, and I'm just doing it for fun. That aside, the points I am discussing are more to properly zero in on what the issues are, as it seems to some extent that I have simply assumed my weak lower back has been getting in the way of my squats and dead lifts is based on how my lower back actually feels on a day to day basis.

Well this is a great example of why you should be more open to listening. To assume knowledge based on your admitted casual lifting is just silly.

Also, there's been no mention of dropping the weights either, so I'm not sure why you think I am refusing to and where the ego is coming in to it.

Well, you should definitely drop the weights and work on technique. It's just that there is no point in mentioning this to someone who doesn't seem to be conceding some very obvious technical flaws.

Also, FF is mentioning dropping weights because that's exactly what he (and others here) has done where necessary. This is a credit to him as a lifter and why he will continue to make progress.

 

[spoffle]

Well that's wrong. It's hip crease below knee, and I'm pretty sure Spoffle didn't go that deep. Being a bigger guy is not an excuse.

He's talking about the origins of "parallel".

I did say that I wasn't sure about the depth because it's hard to tell from that angle.

You did, which is why I've argued against it when it's been later asserted that I definitely am not breaking parallel.

It's not worth arguing about because it's going nowhere.

The only observation that's open to contention in your depth, as I said.

My other disagreement was that I was bombing out, and that the contrast of ascent speed compared to descent speed was misleading in that regard.

Depth pales in importance to the other things I mentioned, I think it was just funny considering the comments you made previously.

This is why I've contested it again, as you say it's hard to tell, but then assert that it's definite.

Benny was saying that to illustrate the point about bouncing, which isn't diminished by you stating that you can pause a decent amount of weight. I'm sure you can, but I'd bet there would be even more compromise in your spinal stability.

Benny said something different, in that I CANNOT.

You may be aware of SOME of the faults in your lifting, but you seem to have a hard time accepting that your point of view is incorrect and love arguing despite your limited knowledge and experience This doesn't bode well for continued progress.

I'm not having a hard time, to be blunt I am simply not blinding taking what you've said to be gospel. Just because of that, it doesn't mean I am dismissing your words, or just because I question something you've said, doesn't mean I'm having a hard time accepting anything.

If you notice, I've been asking you questions about the conclusions you've came up with, now you've said a few times that you don't want to seem obnoxious, and I think you might be feeling like that because I've questioned what you've said, but I'm doing that to find out more about what you're saying, not to simply say you're wrong, you seem to want to tell me, rather than talk.

As before, I asked if my pecs were tight, would that not get in the way of my benching with a narrow grip?

Stretch your lats too if they're tight, but it's your pecs that are more directly limiting external rotation in that position. The resources in the mobility thread include diagnostic tools.

Yes, so you're missing internal and external rotation due to tight pecs.

I am questioning you to get a greater understanding, not to tell you that you're wrong. It doesn't seem to me that it is my pecs, and that's okay, because I'm inexperienced.

But if you explained why you believe it's my pecs, so I can actually understand the bio-mechanical process that's going on, I might understand what you're seeing and why you're seeing it that way.

Is that really an issue?

Well this is a great example of why you should be more open to listening. To assume knowledge based on your admitted casual lifting is just silly.

As above, I am not closed to listening, but wouldn't you say it's silly of me to just listen and not actually word what I feel in certain muscles when I do certain activities?

Well, you should definitely drop the weights and work on technique. It's just that there is no point in mentioning this to someone who doesn't seem to be conceding some very obvious technical flaws.

I feel like you haven't been following my posts thoroughly, or you want me to listen and not question.

I like to question and I see no issue with it, you have questioned me a fair amount which I have not taken issue with, no?

Also, FF is mentioning dropping weights because that's exactly what he (and others here) has done where necessary. This is a credit to him as a lifter and why he will continue to make progress.

Maybe it's not your intention, but this comes across as a sly dig, to suggest I will not progress unless I do as I'm told. I'm not into that way of dealing with things, we're all adults, we should be able to discuss things and question things, no? I have not refused anything you've said, I have refuted a few points, sure because they're related to how I know I feel, compared to your observations of a poor video, but the undertones aren't cool as I haven't once said I'm not listening.

You seem to think I don't appreciate that you're trying to help, Freefaller has that impression too, and I'm not sure why as if feels like my posts aren't being read properly by those criticising, case in point; Benny thinking I was saying 120x10 was volume for squats- which in itself I'm not criticising, but it shows my posts weren't read properly.

 

[Serge]

No disrespect to Serge intended, but he hasn't pointed out the things I mentioned so I'm not sure that he has much experience of noticing dysfunction and correcting peoples technique.

I didn't highlight these issues as you already have so there's no point in repeating advice, particularly on the forums when I can speak to him in person about it. I think the external rotation has been the most obvious one which I've spoken to Spoffle about already but I've not had a chance to do any flexibility tests with him.

Regardless of the cause, it appears to be throwing his cervical and thoracic alignment out which I think has lead to balance and depth issues in the past, although notably I don't think he has ever artificially paused at anything above his own full depth. We have done some tests with elbows more perpendicular to the floor in the past and it has resulted in higher depth due to a more upright torso at descent, albeit at great discomfort due to existing flexibility issues.

What I was unsure of was the cause and solution to his existing lumbar issues. It's far more prominent on deadlifts which is seriously hampering maximum strength in that area. He's effortlessly pulled 220kg up to mid-thigh a number of times and then load gets partially transferred to the erector spinae and it's a horrible grind to complete the rep past there. Spoffle's generally kept away from squats and deadlifts in the time I've known him for this reason.

What I can do if you'd like is to get him to do some concentrics with 140kg or 180kg and find a way to video from the side when I next see him so you can see depth and form from that position, it may shed more light.

 

[Delvis]

As before, I asked if my pecs were tight, would that not get in the way of my benching with a narrow grip?.

A narrower grip on bench will not be hindered by tight pecs, a narrower grip will be easier on tight pecs. I know this because I have tight pecs which have screwed my shoulder up, a narrower grip helps with my shoulder.stretching my pecs daily helps.

I get shoulder and wrist pains sometimes when squatting, what fixed this? Doing internal/external rotation work on my ahoulders, do you know who helped me with these issues? Ice, mrthingy but to name a couple, basically people on this forum.

Oh, and can you guess which people have been helpibg with my lumbar issues as well?

 

[BennyC]

My other disagreement was that I was bombing out, and that the contrast of ascent speed compared to descent speed was misleading in that regard.

Ascent speed does not make descent speed misleading on a lift, that's my view.

If you're willing to film sets from 120KG upwards, squatting as you have done previously making no extra effort to alter the speed of your eccentric/concentric phases I'm sure it will highlight to you what I mean.

Benny thinking I was saying 120x10 was volume for squats- which in itself I'm not criticising, but it shows my posts weren't read properly.

I wouldn't tar us all with the same brush because I skim read your post

 

[spoffle]

A narrower grip on bench will not be hindered by tight pecs, a narrower grip will be easier on tight pecs. I know this because I have tight pecs which have screwed my shoulder up, a narrower grip helps with my shoulder.stretching my pecs daily helps.

When I changed my grip to narrow, my bench press ROM increased quite a noticeable amount (the distance the bar travels) hence my reasons for querying this.

I get shoulder and wrist pains sometimes when squatting, what fixed this? Doing internal/external rotation work on my ahoulders, do you know who helped me with these issues? Ice, mrthingy but to name a couple, basically people on this forum.

And that's great.

Oh, and can you guess which people have been helpibg with my lumbar issues as well?

Sure, but mrthingy doesn't come across as having the attitude that anything he says must be accepted without question, else I be accused of having ego issues, which is a bit odd as insisting advice be accepted without question comes across more so like that, than my questioning to understand what's being said.

If that's not his intention, fair enough, but "you're not doing as you've been told" isn't really helping anyone, and comes across as unnecessarily confrontational.

What use is there accepting things without questions? How does that increase my scope of knowledge?

It seems people take it as a person affront to have their advice questioned, as if anything but blind acceptance is disrespectful. I would expect people would want their advice to be questioned as it shows the person is attempting to increase their knowledge of a subject.

Ascent speed does not make descent speed misleading on a lift, that's my view.

If you're willing to film sets from 120KG upwards, squatting as you have done previously making no extra effort to alter the speed of your eccentric/concentric phases I'm sure it will highlight to you what I mean.



I wouldn't tar us all with the same brush because I skim read your post

I know what your view is, the difference is that you are essentially trying to tell me that I am not feeling that I am keeping tension, which comes across as highly condescending. Especially because I actually *have* to make a concious effort not to drop on to things, due to my weight, stuff can break quite easily, so I learnt a while back to not drop myself on to things. When I sit down, I keep tension. So I'm sure you can appreciate how your comments are coming across with that in mind.

I did release tension at the very bottom to transfer the load on to my hips, but that's a world away from your insistence that I am just dropping the whole way down.

I was pointing out that you hadn't really taken the effort to read my post properly before jumping very quickly to try and criticise. I might be reading in to things there, but it shows an intent or desire to criticise above anything else, as it was pretty clear what I meant.

But as I said, I might be reading in to it.

But really, on what planet would I not want to prove my squatting? What do I have to gain by apparently disregarding advice (which isn't what I'm doing)?

I simply need to thoroughly understand what's being spoken about, without the condescending attitude and almost "do as you're told" suggestions.

 

[BennyC]

I know what your view is, the difference is that you are essentially trying to tell me that I am not feeling that I am keeping tension, which comes across as highly condescending. Especially because I actually *have* to make a concious effort not to drop on to things, due to my weight, stuff can break quite easily, so I learnt a while back to not drop myself on to things. When I sit down, I keep tension. So I'm sure you can appreciate how your comments are coming across with that in mind.

I would be very interested to see a video of you dropping down in to a bodyweight squat, as if you like you say this would surely highlight the difference of which you speak that I, or any other regular posters here, can't quite comprehend.

I simply need to thoroughly understand what's being spoken about, without the condescending attitude and almost "do as you're told" suggestions.

Understanding advice is important like you say, but questioning absolutely everything with an infant like 'why, why, why' response coupled with defensive statements and the impression of a lack of desire to change is mildly frustrating.

Regardless, all the best.