Lifting for gainzzz

[spoffle]

Just duo when you post vids you only need the very last strong of characters after the watch= bit.

Are they not working for you how I posted them?

Whoooosh. Have fun with your shoulder goals of 2014.

But 100KG isn't the same to everyone. What's with the "do as you're told, or I'm going to make snide comments" attitude going around here?

Is there really any need to be condescending with the "whoosh"? I actually do know what you said, it didn't go over my head.

Weight being relative is what seems to be going over your head, it feels like you're basing your post on how you'd be if you warmed up with 100KG.

 

[Serge]

Your legs walk around with 100kg on them all day for instance, theyre used to some load, you don't walk around using your chest all day with 100kg load on it.

With respect, there's a big difference to walking around with most of the load taken by your knees due to lockout and then when you do break lock-out to take a step, incredibly low ROM, in comparison to maximum ROM squats. I can walk around all day but my legs actually take longer to warm up and stop creaking with the same % of my 1RM than my bench does. Regardless though, I often warm-up with 100kg for squats just because 60kg doesn't really feel much different to a body-weight squat anymore and therefore doesn't get the synovial fluid circulating in my joints. The guides on warm-ups (particularly those by Charles Poliquin) have never suggested using such a minimal amount of your 1RM to start with for a warm-up unless you're suffering from a serious injury that you are trying to rehabilitate.

Your shoulders are complex little buggers and need appropriate care, maybe you'll be fine doing 100kg straight away for the next 20 years, entirely up to you at the end of the day.

Shoulders are most definitely complex and I do take a little bit more care in warming up with bench, the lowest I'll warm up with will be 60kg for a couple of sets of 5. Starting with the bar to warm up may have been something I did when I was 16 and had a 60kg 1RM but it's all relative, as 60kg feels like 20kg felt back then. My 1RM is around 140kg now so using roughly 15% of my 1RM to start off with seems nonsensical and I've never read anything with scientific authority to suggest warming up with such a low 1RM percentage.

 

[spoffle]

Just to add another point, surely following the same logic, it would be inadvisable for me to do push ups, due to my weight, the load would be significantly higher than 20, 40, 60, 80KG+, yet countless people manage pushups fine without warming up with little to no weights.

 

[Delvis]

Yes I probably would, especially with your current tightness issues.

Anyway, you're clearly happy with doing 100kg without prior warm up so ill leave it be, ive given you my opinion on the matter so there we go.

Serge is aware of the fact shoulders need warming up properly so im surprised he lets you do so as you are esecially if youre wanting to be more consistant with your training.

 

[spoffle]

The press up issue applies to everyone. For most people, unless they were children, they are going to be under more strain than the equivalent of 20KG bench press by doing press ups, which are done without a warm up. Additionally, I am under the impression that you think I am 150KG on a small frame, I do not have a small frame, by comparison, I have quite a large frame, things aren't as absolute as you seem to think.

I think you need to disassociate yourself and how 100KG is to you with how it is to other people.

I am not disagreeing that shoulders need warming up, what's under contention is the load required to warm up correctly, and the logic you're following is faulty as I've pointed out with the push ups thing.

The frustrating part is that you're misrepresenting what I'm saying, then arguing against that. At no point did I suggest that shoulders don't need warming up, I said that it's all relative.

You do also realise that Serge is not supporting your claims here, but mine, right? I think you might have misunderstood what he's saying.

 

[Delvis]

I haven't got a clue what 'frame' you have nor have I mentioned it.

Ah yes I forgot, because a weight is not easy for me or I am not lifting more than an individual my thoughts are incorrect.

 

[spoffle]

You seem to be asserting that 100KG is the same for everyone, you can hardly blame anyone for thinking that because you've strongly hinted at that being what you think.

About my frame, again it was said to reference the whole "it's relative" type of thing, but you seem to be putting 100KG on a pedestal or something, as you keep saying "if you're happy to do it without a warm up".

Again, the point about pressups is that they have different equivalent bench presses depending on how much you weigh, but I've never came across the notion that you'll trash your shoulders if you do press ups without a warm up.

For me, doing a press up feels no different in difficulty to bench pressing 100KG.

It's coming across as picking for the sake of it, as the scaremongering is getting a bit absurd now.

I feel like I'm being baited with ridiculous claims of injury (I am aware of you having trashed your shoulders doing something), so that I disagree with it, so there's more to complain about and insist that I'm strongly resisting advice because I have an ego problem.

 

[Delvis]

I merely asked if you did 100kg x 10 without any kind of warm up, ive then let you know that this could be potentilly bad, as you say everyone is different, regardless 100kg is not a light load for anyones shoulders.

Anyway, we'll leave it at that, I cant say anything else regarding my original enquiry

 

[spoffle]

That's fair enough, it's the assertion of "good bye, shoulders" that came across badly, as it's almost saying that you guarantee I will get injured from it, that and the suggestion that I claimed that shoulders don't need to be warmed up.

 

[Delvis]

Like I said, its a lot of strain to go from nothing to 100kg, you may be fine id just rather you was aware that its a risk to be doing so.

Its been suggested many times, stretch your pecs, a lot.

 

[spoffle]

I do stretch them, fairly regularly, my shoulders too. I understand where you're coming from as I've said, it was just the way it was presented that came across badly.

 

[Syla5]

Are they not working for you how I posted them?

Nope they weren't, but they are in the quoted posts because I took out the watch?= fluff .

Out of interest is that the top room in the house your training in?

 

[spoffle]

How strange, they are all working fine on my computers and phone. Oh well, if it works the other way, I'll make sure to do it without the watch part in future so you don't have any difficulties.

Yeah, it's the top floor at Serge's, how come?

 

[tom_e]

You're point loading the best part of half a ton onto the floor boards it's a lot of weight concentrated over a couple of floor boards.

 

[spoffle]

I had a feeling it'd be about that.

There are quite thick rubber mats down over the area, and it's a functional room with thick chipboard sheet flooring (as opposed to traditional floor boards), on to the joists with carpet over the top.

 

[Syla5]

Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable especially if a fail goes badly wrong. Also traditional floorboards are stronger then chipboard, and generally thinker. The joists will be up to the loads and I am sure the matting will help, and that everything will be fine, but personally I would be doing lifting on the ground floor.

Also can't you get some decent side angle sets if you just open the door to the left of the rack and sit out in the hall to film?

 

[Serge]

My stuff is up there more out of necessity than design as I don't have any room in the floors below. I'm currently deliberating on whether or not to run an electrical feed to my garage and convert it into a gym or whether to just move to a bigger house.

I think structurally it's sound despite the fact that Redrow aren't famed for the build quality of their houses. Ordinarily I'd have a double bed with a load of stuff underneath it where my weights are currently. That plus two people sleeping in it would result in getting on for 300-400kg anyway, on probably a smaller surface area with an absence of rubber matting. I've had no issues for 3 or so years doing that.

On the other hand, there's one thing to have that weight in a stable form applying constant pressure and another thing to be picking it up and dropping it on the floor, which is why I'm very careful when I train. Ideally once I hit a 200kg squat, I want to take a step back for a while and start learning the C&J and snatch. I don't think anyone would advocate doing those sort of lifts in my room

With regards to getting a side shot, I've tried already but my door is parallel to where I am when I'm kneeling to film Spoffle's 180kg concentric so I wouldn't be able to get a good angle on him. It's just not a very practical room for lifting at all, but needs must at the moment!

EDITED: Oh, I didn't read that you said left there, the door you see there is part of a row of wardrobes, I suppose I could crawl into the wardrobe to get a side shot, but I'd have to balance my dignity against getting a good video of Spoffle's depth.

 

[Delvis]

Dignity is over rated

Certainly look in to using the garage, a few people have done similar on here to good effect

 

[icecold]

It's more a case of that I'm not actively trying to train him outside of recognising his issues and then purposely doing nothing; plus, I have limited knowledge when it comes to actually alleviating problems as opposed to just diagnosing them. Additionally, I'm trying to prioritise my own form issues that I need to work on as you'll see in the video below:

To be honest, most of my training time and effort with Spoffle is spent moaning at him, as a friend, to train full stop, he's never really managed to get in a training routine and will often have breaks for 6 months plus, then do 10-20 sessions, then have a large break again and start losing the strength he's gained from the 10-20 sessions he's done. I don't think he'd have any problem at all obtaining a 300kg squat if he kept into a routine for 6 months and ate more than 1-2 large meals a day. Convincing him to make these changes is where most of my energy goes.

EDITED: Just as an addition, I agree with you when you say that his spinal dysfunction is his top priority. I do believe he has something physiologically wrong with his spine, though I'm not sure what it is, he may be able to clarify. I think it may be an abnormally large gap between two of his lumbar vertebrae. I'm not sure whether this is actually having a direct impact on the neutrality of his spine during such lifts.

That's fine, my only agenda here is safety and, if we ever get there, helping with technical problems and strength deficits.

At the moment, a 300kg squat is a very long way away. A friend of mine is a similar weight and is actually strong within his weight class, and not even a guy of his size can lift with those kinds of dysfunctions (he also benches over 200kg and warms up with the bar...). You can not get away with form like that forever.

Regarding your squat there, you also have some issues. It looks like you're able to almost maintain a neutral spine, but the way you tip forward out of the hole places a lot of load on your back, particularly with your high bar position. I can't tell exactly what's going on with that angle, but it's normally a compensation for weak legs compared to a strong back, and possibly taking a poor line on the eccentric portion of the lift. You need to maintain a more vertical torso, and keep your knees forward as you drive up. Obviously, this will need to be practised with a lot less weight.

snip

*sigh*

What are you even talking about? You're not even discussing lifting any more, and seem bizarrely interested in winning internet arguments of your own creation.

Why were you arguing with Delvis? Apart from your pointless conjecture, what knowledge of proper warm up procedure do you imagine you have? People who are considerably stronger than you warm up with the bar, because it's good practice. If that confuses you, please ask for an explanation rather than using your extremely limited knowledge and experience to argue against a very reasonable point.

To simplify my point, and avoid "baiting" you into more ridiculous and time wasting arguments, your form is terrible. You have some very real movement issues that would be in your best interests to address. If you want help with these issue, I suggest you find a good coach or I will be happy to help. If not, or you are going to ask me to convince you that these issues exist, then good luck to you.

 

[Serge]

Regarding your squat there, you also have some issues. It looks like you're able to almost maintain a neutral spine, but the way you tip forward out of the hole places a lot of load on your back, particularly with your high bar position. I can't tell exactly what's going on with that angle, but it's normally a compensation for weak legs compared to a strong back, and possibly taking a poor line on the eccentric portion of the lift. You need to maintain a more vertical torso, and keep your knees forward as you drive up. Obviously, this will need to be practised with a lot less weight.

What I've found is that I seem to oscillate between weak legs and a weak lower back, there's times where I can feel myself drive up with my legs easily (like from the bottom in that video) and times where I de-rack a working weight and feel surprised at how light it feels on my back. I see what you mean with regards to me tipping forward out of the hole.

I'm currently doing the horrible smolov squat routine for a second time at the moment which will hopefully leave me at close to the 200kg mark so I'll start a training log after I've done that in two weeks. I'll try and get some good videos of me ramping up from working weight to a 1RM so you can see when and where my form deteriorates as load is added if you wouldn't mind looking at them.

Also, interestingly, I only ever get posterior chain fatigue from squatting, literally no quad fatigue at all, do you think this has an impact on my form?