London Bridge Incident

Screeeech said:
Surely, integration is a two way process, whilst I'm not advocating attending the mosque tonight (or ever) we have to accept them for who they are, we have to accept their culture into our society, we can't accept them when they're blowing themselves up in pop concerts, and they can't accept us - when we're demonising them 24/7 for blowing themselves up, in a hellish circle of pain.

The way I see it, like or hate it - these people and their culture are here to stay, there's no getting rid of them, ever, so... We have to figure out a way of getting along, otherwise those forensics chaps in white suits are going to be picking up more and more bits of children - which nobody wants.

My worry is, it'll end up going on like this for decades - hatred of Islam will become more aggressive, Islam will feel more alienated than ever, ultimately we'll all suffer from it.
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Why the **** should we accept a culture that is not compliant with ours. I don't want a sexist, misogynistic, racist subculture within the UK and nor should you.
 
StriderX said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...lled-air-strike-isil-held-raqqa-hits-shelter/



It happens, and thats all that matters.
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Perhaps try to present an argument

US Air Force killed some civilians on one country so people form another country are justified in killing people? Is that your argument?

I mean if that is your basis then you might as well use it to justify anyone killing anyone... perhaps try to think and compose an actual thought out response next time.
 
Screeeech said:
Surely, integration is a two way process, whilst I'm not advocating attending the mosque tonight (or ever) we have to accept them for who they are, we have to accept their culture into our society, we can't accept them when they're blowing themselves up in pop concerts, and they can't accept us - when we're demonising them 24/7 for blowing themselves up, in a hellish circle of pain.

The way I see it, like or hate it - these people and their culture are here to stay, there's no getting rid of them, ever, so... We have to figure out a way of getting along, otherwise those forensics chaps in white suits are going to be picking up more and more bits of children - which nobody wants.

My worry is, it'll end up going on like this for decades - hatred of Islam will become more aggressive, Islam will feel more alienated than ever, ultimately we'll all suffer from it.
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You should not be tolerent of those who have no interest in British culture, law, or integrating, or being socialable or planning change which is against our society.

Islam shouldn't have been imported en masse into this country. Wasn't like this 20 years ago, what are the numbers in soceity then and now?
 
Screeeech said:
The way I see it, like or hate it - these people and their culture are here to stay, there's no getting rid of them, ever, so... We have to figure out a way of getting along, otherwise those forensics chaps in white suits are going to be picking up more and more bits of children - which nobody wants.
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Not to be insensitive to the problems of integration for those larger numbers that are not extremists but the problem is those that are part of the group that will carry out attacks like we've seen recently aren't interested in reason aren't interested in being got along with - they are being reported by other Muslims for their hate speech, etc. but there isn't the political or social stomach for dealing with it.
 
Screeeech said:
Surely, integration is a two way process, whilst I'm not advocating attending the mosque tonight (or ever) we have to accept them for who they are, we have to accept their culture into our society, we can't accept them when they're blowing themselves up in pop concerts, and they can't accept us - when we're demonising them 24/7 for blowing themselves up, in a hellish circle of pain.

The way I see it, like or hate it - these people and their culture are here to stay, there's no getting rid of them, ever, so... We have to figure out a way of getting along, otherwise those forensics chaps in white suits are going to be picking up more and more bits of children - which nobody wants.

My worry is, it'll end up going on like this for decades - hatred of Islam will become more aggressive, Islam will feel more alienated than ever, ultimately we'll all suffer from it.
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We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Islamic culture is utterly dysfunctional, and any concessions will be a one-way ratchet.
 
dowie said:
Perhaps try to present an argument

US Air Force killed some civilians on one country so people form another country are justified in killing people? Is that your argument?

I mean if that is your basis then you might as well use it to justify anyone killing anyone... perhaps try to think and compose an actual thought out response next time.
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What other country?

You keep spouting **** about Islam as a singular body, but instantly revert to national causes because we did something dumb here/there.

Yeah, sure...whatever... not like we live in a world where a devout wahhabist/sallafist in Pakistan/Libya cant see things happening in Syria or Iraq, its not like the internet exists.

OH WAIT
 
StriderX said:
What other country?

You keep spouting **** about Islam as a singular body, but instantly revert to national causes because we did something dumb here/there.

Yeah, sure...whatever... not like we live in a world where a devout wahhabist/sallafist in Pakistan/Libya cant see things happening in Syria or Iraq, its not like the internet exists.
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Your justification is that Islam is a singular body...

'The West killed a Muslim in x therefore no wonder Muslim in y is annoyed'.
 
Dis86 said:
Why the **** should we accept a culture that is not compliant with ours. I don't want a sexist, misogynistic, racist subculture within the UK and nor should you.
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Well what do you want?

Force all Muslims to convert to secular/christian?

Eradicate the faith entirely?

hornetstinger said:
You should not be tolerent of those who have no interest in British culture, law, or integrating, or being socialable or planning change which is against our society.

Islam shouldn't have been imported en masse into this country. Wasn't like this 20 years ago, what are the numbers in soceity then and now?
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I don't like it anymore than you do, do you think I like Islam or something? you think I'm some sort of lefty who just wants to pander to whatever they want? I want a workable long term solution, that doesn't end up with bits of people flying across the rooftops each weekend, if it's all the same to you?

It seems that we want to continue the same rhetoric forever and ever; "We shouldn't accept their barbaric culture - it's all their fault" which I don't actually entirely disagree with, it is very much their fault - the blood is on their hands, as a result we keep banging the hammer on them - whilst expecting it all to just suddenly start working and the terror attacks will stop...

My big gripe, is that it's very easy to put the blood on their hands because they're the ones pushing the button on the suicide vest, rub our hands together and proclaim "damn Muslims, at it again" deploy the army.

However we seem incapable of looking into our own culture, to maybe help figure out a way of taking meaningful, effective action that prevents people getting to such a low point in their lives, that they become radicalised and end up blowing themselves up.

All I want, is meaningful, competent measures that are effective that address the root cause - that won't make the whole problem worse and cause more terror - that's all I'm angling for here, (maybe rather naively :) )
 
StriderX said:
Well no ****, but you tell me that if parts of your family or friends were being slaughter day in and day out (they have large friend/family groups generally), that you would look at "+30 dead in a school filled with refugees" and think man the West is really nice?

I really don't care about the middle east or its denizens at all, but i hate reality being molded to fit the "Lets just bomb them some more" and authority clamp down arguments.
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But to think Isis exists because we bombed them is short sighted.

They rampages across Iraq and Syria killing people who worship a different version of islam/Christians with no ties to the west.
 
Screeeech said:
Well what do you want?

Force all Muslims to convert to secular/christian?

Eradicate the faith entirely?



I don't like it anymore than you do, do you think I like Islam or something? you think I'm some sort of lefty who just wants to pander to whatever they want? I want a workable long term solution, that doesn't end up with bits of people flying across the rooftops each weekend, if it's all the same to you?

It seems that we want to continue the same rhetoric forever and ever; "We shouldn't accept their barbaric culture - it's all their fault" which I don't actually entirely disagree with, it is very much their fault - the blood is on their hands, as a result we keep banging the hammer on them - whilst expecting it all to just suddenly start working and the terror attacks will stop...

My big gripe, is that it's very easy to put the blood on their hands because they're the ones pushing the button on the suicide vest, rub our hands together and proclaim "damn Muslims, at it again" deploy the army.

However we seem incapable of looking into our own culture, to maybe help figure out a way of taking meaningful, effective action that prevents people getting to such a low point in their lives, that they become radicalised and end up blowing themselves up.

All I want, is meaningful, competent measures that are effective that address the root cause - that won't make the whole problem worse and cause more terror - that's all I'm angling for here, (maybe rather naively :) )
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Suicide attacks happen all the time in the middle east. Just recently 1500lb bomb went off, then another at a funeral. Then in Mumbai. All the ****** time.
 
StriderX said:
What other country?

You keep spouting **** about Islam as a singular body, but instantly revert to national causes because we did something dumb here/there.

Yeah, sure...whatever... not like we live in a world where a devout wahhabist/sallafist in Pakistan/Libya cant see things happening in Syria or Iraq, its not like the internet exists.

OH WAIT
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Where have I done that? Perhaps you should try to present an actual argument and make use of the quote facility if you want to highlight something you object to that someone else has posted.

I notice you've again failed to present an argument and have instead just deflected/ranted...
 
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lol this has been going on since before America was barely even a country....

.......discovered by Jefferson and John Adams when they went to call on Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman. They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves in this way. As Jefferson later reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:

The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

Medieval as it is, this has a modern ring to it. Abdrahaman did not fail to add that a commission paid directly to Tripoli—and another paid to himself—would secure some temporary lenience. I believe on the evidence that it was at this moment that Jefferson decided to make war on the Muslim states of North Africa as soon as the opportunity presented itself. And, even if I am wrong, we can be sure that the dispatch of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps to the Barbary shore was the first and most important act of his presidency. It took several years of bombardment before the practice of kidnap and piracy and slavery was put down, but put down it was, Quranic justification or not"
 
Screeeech said:
I'm what many would consider to be a pretty hardline Atheist, I have zero time for religion in my life, I have no love for Islam I can assure you.

It's not about pandering to anyone, it's about trying to solve a serious problem that threatens us, and we're at the end of a decade and a half of seeing the same old strategy playing out time and time again, a flawed strategy that isn't working.

The strategy doesn't work, because nowhere does it address the root cause of the problem - islamic radicalisation. From where I sit the vast majority of money, time and effort has been thrown at reactive solutions that seek to detect an stop problems that already exist, rather than proactive solutions that stop the problems forming in the first place regardless of who's fault it is.

I put it to you, that if you look at the evidence and the way things play out, with the hysterical, repeated saturation coverage - that the media can be directly implicated in assisting with the radicalisation of Islam, just like how the lymph nodes transport cancer - the media transport radical messages directly to the places where it does no good whatsoever.

What has happened, has come directly out of the playbook in the US with mass shootings. Where you have a mass shooting followed by hysterical saturation coverage, in the following weeks there are almost always repeated copycat attacks, almost every time.
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It's specious reasoning though. The media report what happened, that a terrorist attack has been carried out by Muslims who hate the west and want to bring on the end of days. They aren't watching the BBC news channel and thinking 'I better go out and suicide bomb a concert, that'll stop them saying bad things about us!'. They hate us as non-Muslims, they hate our way of life, they hate you if 24 hour rolling news didn't exist and was taken off the air. They hate you. They love death like you love life.

The only language they'll understand is by being hard-line with them in either detention or death.
 
Screeeech said:
The way I see it, like or hate it - these people and their culture are here to stay, there's no getting rid of them, ever, so... We have to figure out a way of getting along, otherwise those forensics chaps in white suits are going to be picking up more and more bits of children - which nobody wants.

My worry is, it'll end up going on like this for decades - hatred of Islam will become more aggressive, Islam will feel more alienated than ever, ultimately we'll all suffer from it.
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What a weakling you are.
 
Above&Beyond said:
That 'Jihadi Next Door' show by Channel 4 last year supposedly has one of the attackers on it. I remember at the time wondering why these pathetic losers were even allowed to preach their hate.
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Abu Haleema it seems and an associate of Anjem Choudry. I watched that a few months back and was amazed at how brazen the whole group were. Guess it wasn't just hyperbole.
 
Johno please? said:
lol this has been going on since before America was barely even a country....

.......discovered by Jefferson and John Adams when they went to call on Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman. They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves in this way. As Jefferson later reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:

The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

Medieval as it is, this has a modern ring to it. Abdrahaman did not fail to add that a commission paid directly to Tripoli—and another paid to himself—would secure some temporary lenience. I believe on the evidence that it was at this moment that Jefferson decided to make war on the Muslim states of North Africa as soon as the opportunity presented itself. And, even if I am wrong, we can be sure that the dispatch of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps to the Barbary shore was the first and most important act of his presidency. It took several years of bombardment before the practice of kidnap and piracy and slavery was put down, but put down it was, Quranic justification or not"
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Hence the opening lines of the Service Anthem of the United States Marine Corps:
"From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli..."

Don't forget that the Royal Navy played an instrumental role in ending the white slave trade on the Barbary Coast as well.
 
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