London Bridge Incident

dowie said:
you keep banging on about X number dead etc.. but the point made by the other poster was pretty fair re: most of these people not wanting their respective dictators back... pointing out that relatives of dead people might be angry is rather obvious, it isn't however a logical conclusion that they'd somehow want a dictator back or particularly relevant to the original point being made. Also I'm not sure why you're attributing this to bombs being dropped, plenty of casualties will have come from various infighting/sectarian violence.
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It's pretty telling you suggest as fair an opinion on the feelings of the Iraqi people (as if that is one coherent group) and automatically correct, about the Saddam era, but a suggested possible counter view based on reason and likely evidence of the apparent state of the country and massive loss of life is, "Banging on about X number of dead". I guess on average your position of the relevance on X numbers of deaths is highly correlated to proximity to X?

On your second point, controversial it may be, a peer reviewed analysis of death as reported by Iraqi people themselves it undeniably is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties
 
Tosno said:
"Whatever" why so bitter? Most yes, some yes, it's the symptom of the illness. Many Christians are not going because churches are not strict enough and I'd go further and say even unchristian. Try and find an Orthodox priest that would marry an Orthodox to an Anglican, a very difficult task, as they view Anglicans in an unfavourable light.
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"Many Christians"? The point is there are not as "many Christians" as you seem to think. If they wanted stricter churches they could find them. There's baptist churches and free churches out there that won't pull their punches, but no, they're struggling as well.

I think you're deluded about why Christianity is fading in this country.
 
stewski said:
It's pretty telling you suggest as fair an opinion on the feelings of the Iraqi people (as if that is one coherent group) and automatically correct, about the Saddam era, but a suggested possible counter view based on reason and likely evidence of the apparent state of the country and massive loss of life is, "Banging on about X number of dead". I guess on average your position of the relevance on X numbers of deaths is highly correlated to proximity to X?

On your second point, controversial it may be, a peer reviewed analysis of death as reported by Iraqi people themselves it undeniably is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_Iraq_War_casualties
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So you're still banging on about numbers of dead... it seems to be an utterly spurious point in relation to the argument put forward by the other poster re: dictators... adding more links about numbers of dead etc.. doesn't add anything to that.

Do you also suppose the families of dead French and Dutch civilians in WW2 wished that Hitler had stayed in power?

Fact still remains that Saddam was widely unpopular and the majority of the Iraqi people wanted to see him gone. Banging on about 'but but X00,000 dead' doesn't change that.
 
C.R.A.Z.Y said:
Major of London Sadiq Khan, who himself is a great beacon of Muslim integration and multiculturalism
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I'm sorry but... C.R.A.Z.Y

asim18 said:
I Dis86 I sometimes go to mosques even though I am not muslim. The Message being preached has ALWAYS been one of peace. You don't need a source for this. You simply need to walk into a mosque.
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I tell ya what Asim, who's not a muslim :p Let's have an undercover operation with footage in every mosque and see what happens, no hiding anything. If they all come back OK, I'll be the first to put my apologies across on this forum
 
Neil79 said:
I'm sorry but... C.R.A.Z.Y

I tell ya what Asim, who's not a muslim :p Let's have an undercover operation with footage in every mosque and see what happens, no hiding anything. If they all come back OK, I'll be the first to put my apologies across on this forum
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Why do you need undercover operations to show you that? You simply do as he said, just walk into any mosque and sit and listen to the words being spoken, it's pretty much exactly as he says.

I don't really have the time to think about religion or anything like that generally, but just seen the below video and came here to post it. This was a solid interview, I'm not a fan of Pierce based on his previous works... But fair play to both host and guest in this. The message is about working together as Brits, protecting our home country and weeding out these extremists. There's only really one way to do that, and that's by working together.


Mr Masroor also makes a valid point about cutting ties with foreign leaderships that don't offer their people the same ideals that we (the West) believe in and stand for. Why should we fund and support those nations only for their backwards thinking to filter into our country? Politicians also play a role in this mess.

IMO anyone who incites any sort of hate through the security of their onscreen handle doesn't have the basic human intelligence to see any sort of reason in a mutual resolution between affected parties. Those people are almost just as brainwashed as the extremists themselves.

Sadly that is also the reason why I don't think any efforts will work to resolve this problem. Too may people out there airing hatred and racism without the capacity to think about what they're saying and the consequences it can have down the line.
 
mrk said:
Why do you need undercover operations to show you that? You simply do as he said, just walk into any mosque and sit and listen to the words being spoken, it's pretty much exactly as he says.
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That won't wash with people who've actual experience of places of worship whether Islamic, Christian or Jewish, etc.

Even if there was something of that nature going on in few instances would there be full on spiels of hate preached and in some cases where it might be a bit more passionate that might be all it was - passionate without any sinister intent.
 
Rroff said:
That won't wash with people who've actual experience of places of worship whether Islamic, Christian or Jewish, etc.

Even if there was something of that nature going on in few instances would there be full on spiels of hate preached and in some cases where it might be a bit more passionate that might be all it was - passionate without any sinister intent.
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I do have actual experience of places of worship.
 
mrk said:
I do have actual experience of places of worship.
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What you and a couple of others are describing is a very simplistic view of how a place of worship and the relevant congregation, etc. works even where radicalisation is ongoing its rare to have full on unambiguous spiels of hate preaching and incitement (though it does happen i.e. the addresses of al-Baghdadi).
 
Rroff said:
What you and a couple of others are describing is a very simplistic view of how a place of worship and the relevant congregation, etc. works even where radicalisation is ongoing its rare to have full on unambiguous spiels of hate preaching and incitement (though it does happen i.e. the addresses of al-Baghdadi).
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Unless it has happened behind closed doors, then it is never something I have ever been witness to through first or second hand experience. I'd bet good money that it's more a case of those radicals attending just because it's a place of worship. Somewhere for them to meditate/pray or whatever else, whilst other attendees around them are none the wiser. That is the primary reason mosques exist anyway, a place of peaceful worship.

There are no doubt mosques that do preach hate, but they are certainly not in the numbers that are seemingly being assumed by people.
 
LeMson said:
Someone prolly forgot a lighter lol
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LOL

"rubber dingy rapids bro"

oQQPwoz.jpg
 
dowie said:
So you're still banging on about numbers of dead... it seems to be an utterly spurious point in relation to the argument put forward by the other poster re: dictators... adding more links about numbers of dead etc.. doesn't add anything to that.

Do you also suppose the families of dead French and Dutch civilians in WW2 wished that Hitler had stayed in power?

Fact still remains that Saddam was widely unpopular and the majority of the Iraqi people wanted to see him gone. Banging on about 'but but X00,000 dead' doesn't change that.
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Banging on about massive, catastrophic, death tolls is what people do when they have a shred of empathy.

The analogy to France and Holland is awful (was Iraq a long term democracy before the intervention?) but lets carry on, in France and Holland, having defeated Hitler, did the allies drop the countries into a never ending civil war and fail to leave functioning democracies, at the start of our push to liberate did it send the civilian death rate rocketing up from a long term period of rule, virtually nothing you are banging on about is applicable or even similar!

What the majority of the Iraqi's think is pretty difficult to gauge, we haven't really left a functioning democratic state and the effort to do so and the likely fall out of failure was advised against from the outset.

In other words, quit banging on Burke.
 
stewski said:
Banging on about massive, catastrophic, death tolls is what people do when they have a shred of empathy.

The analogy to France and Holland is awful (was Iraq a long term democracy before the intervention?) but lets carry on, in France and Holland, having defeated Hitler, did the allies drop the countries into a never ending civil war and fail to leave functioning democracies, at the start of our push to liberate did it send the civilian death rate rocketing up from a long term period of rule, virtually nothing you are banging on about is applicable or even similar!

What the majority of the Iraqi's think is pretty difficult to gauge, we haven't really left a functioning democratic state and the effort to do so and the likely fall out of failure was advised against from the outset.

In other words, quit banging on Burke.
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What you're failing to take in to account is that the infrastructure of France and Holland were heavily damaged, Germany all but destroyed yet...they built functioning governments in very short order and swiftly rose from being ruins to some of the most advanced countries on the planet. They didn't descend in to civil war and chaos yet Iraq did, Libya did. The reason? Islamic factions vying off against one another.
 
Imams refuse funeral prayers to 'indefensible' London Bridge attackers
More than 130 imams and Muslim religious leaders have said they will refuse to say funeral prayers for the perpetrators of Saturday’s attack in London.

In a highly unusual move, Muslim religious figures from across the country and from different schools of Islam said their pain at the suffering of the victims and their families led them to refuse to perform the traditional Islamic prayer – a ritual normally performed for every Muslim regardless of their actions. They called on others to do the same.

They expressed “shock and utter disgust at these cold-blooded murders”, adding: “We will not perform the traditional Islamic funeral prayer over the perpetrators and we also urge fellow imams and religious authorities to withdraw such a privilege. This is because such indefensible actions are completely at odds with the lofty teachings of Islam.”
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Source = The Guardian

Is that enough condemnation for the resident Islamaphobes here ?? Or let me guess, you don't believe them or think that they are being disingenuous :rolleyes:
 
C.R.A.Z.Y said:
Imams refuse funeral prayers to 'indefensible' London Bridge attackers
Source = The Guardian

Is that enough condemnation for the resident Islamaphobes here ?? Or let me guess, you don't believe them or think that they are being disingenuous :rolleyes:
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It may mean something to another muslim. But it means nothing to most other people. Are you going to answer me from yesterday?

"So most muslims(so you say) didn't mind that Khan had dealings with convicted terrorist Yasser al-Siri and hate preacher Abu Qatada."
 
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