Lostprophets Singer Facing Child Sex Charges

[elmarko]

Because they don't have any self control.

I'm not sure it's a defence to think that a person who becomes sexually attracted to children, is the result of aspects totally beyond their control, we live in a world where we need to exercise self control - reign in our thoughts and stay on the straight and narrow all the time.

If you allow yourself to go off the rails, to the point where you end up thinking, then acting out terrible things, then that's your fault and yours alone, it isn't a defence to simply say something along the lines of "some people are strange"

Yes, I agree they lack the ability to inhibit base desires (self-control).

But I doubt they choose to have those desires in the first place - I mean, I can't take credit for the fact I don't have the mind of a paedophile, or that I don't find children attractive.

For me, I don't require any self-control in this matter as I lack the base desires to begin with.

Surely the problem is both the fact they have these desires to begin with - AND - that they lack the self-control required to never abuse.

 

[Mr Jack]

I'm not sure it's a defence to think that a person who becomes sexually attracted to children, is the result of aspects totally beyond their control, we live in a world where we need to exercise self control - reign in our thoughts and stay on the straight and narrow all the time.

If you allow yourself to go off the rails, to the point where you end up thinking, then acting out terrible things, then that's your fault and yours alone, it isn't a defence to simply say something along the lines of "some people are strange"

(My emphasis). No-one is remotely suggesting that it should be considered a defence against actual abuse.

I'm pointing out, that someone who has sex with a child doll as some kind of substitute, is doing so merely because it's the only way they can fulfil their perverted lust - but over time, the doll will cease to be effective, the progression would be to real a real child, people always want more - especially where sex is concerned.

Except this isn't true. We don't know whether it is the case for paedophiles but we know it's not the case in general. In fact, most people don't keep on searching for more extreme experiences; they take things so far and then stop. Moreover, some satisfaction of sexual desires can act to prevent escalation into more disturbing territory - for example, evidence from Australia suggests the availability of pornography acts as a substitute for rape.

 

[Mr Jack]

But I doubt they choose to have those desires in the first place - I mean, I can't take credit for the fact I don't have the mind of a paedophile, or that I don't find children attractive.

Yes, quite. Well put, Elmarko.

 

[Von Smallhausen]

Despicable acts. Despicable man.

 

[platypus]

No I'm not.

I'm pointing out, that someone who has sex with a child doll as some kind of substitute, is doing so merely because it's the only way they can fulfil their perverted lust - but over time, the doll will cease to be effective, the progression would be to real a real child, people always want more - especially where sex is concerned.

Completely unfounded.

 

[schnoodles]

If you allow yourself to go off the rails, to the point where you end up thinking, then acting out terrible things, then that's your fault and yours alone

So what happens if someone has themselves been abused as a child, and as the result of the emotional and psychological damage that has been done to them, subsequently finds themselves attracted to children. Is that their fault?

 

[schnoodles]

I'm pointing out, that someone who has sex with a child doll as some kind of substitute, is doing so merely because it's the only way they can fulfil their perverted lust - but over time, the doll will cease to be effective, the progression would be to real a real child, people always want more - especially where sex is concerned.

I don't have a view on this, because I haven't seen the evidence on either side. However, it's common for women to have rape fantasies. Would you argue that all those women will eventually progress to trying to get themselves actually raped?

 

[elmarko]

So what happens if someone has themselves been abused as a child, and as the result of the emotional and psychological damage that has been done to them, subsequently finds themselves attracted to children. Is that their fault?

It's a good point, is a child who is raped, abused & beaten systematically throughout their entire childhood - never taught empathy or how to behave in social situations really responsible for what they do when they grow up?.

At what age specifically does it switch them from being the victim of horrible abuse whom the average Joe's heart bleeds for - into being the most hated scum? - does it switch at the point of midnight like the carriage turning into a pumpkin or something?.

People don't like these questions because they blur the lines between victim & perpetrator - it doesn't fit into the minds of people who can only see reality in only two shades (a series of false dichotomies) - ignoring the reality of the matter.

 

[V-Spec]

Yes, I agree they lack the ability to inhibit base desires (self-control).

But I doubt they choose to have those desires in the first place - I mean, I can't take credit for the fact I don't have the mind of a paedophile, or that I don't find children attractive.

For me, I don't require any self-control in this matter as I lack the base desires to begin with.

Surely the problem is both the fact they have these desires to begin with - AND - that they lack the self-control required to never abuse.

In terms of desires, I'm unsure which comes first - the desire to think about it, or the desire after seeing it.

I know somebody who likes massive girls, but he didn't know it until he saw one for the first time, then he was hooked and has been ever since.

It's a weird example I admit, but it's still a fetish - I'm not sure people are aware they have fetishes for things until they experience them. In terms of child sex - if you somehow ended up in a situation where you were confronted with child sex material, you would immediately know whether you liked it or not - up until that point, the thought may never have crossed the mind.

I'm not convinced that paedophiles are born paedophiles, and they're just the results of "bad luck" or "circumstances" (I know you're not saying this, but others are alluding to it)

 

[schnoodles]

It's a good point, is a child who is raped, abused & beaten systematically throughout their entire childhood - never taught empathy or how to behave in social situations really responsible for what they do when they grow up?.

At what age specifically does it switch them from being the victim of horrible abuse whom the average Joe's heart bleeds for - into being the most hated scum? - does it switch at the point of midnight like the carriage turning into a pumpkin or something?.

People don't like these questions because they blur the lines between victim & perpetrator - it doesn't fit into the minds of people who can only see reality in only two shades (a series of false dichotomies) - ignoring the reality of the matter.

It's genuinely refreshing to see an intelligent and nuanced point of view posted on an internet forum

 

[schnoodles]

I'm not convinced that paedophiles are born paedophiles, and they're just the results of "bad luck" or "circumstances" (I know you're not saying this, but others are alluding to it)

I suspect the reality is that there are a lot of different reasons. For some, it'll be the result of childhood abuse. Others may become conditioned by exposure to the material. Others will have biological or mental conditions that create abnormal sexual urges. And I'm sure there's a minority of thrill-seekers who just want to explore darker and darker taboos (although arguably, those people may well have been shaped by something that inclined them in that direction to start with). All of which suggests that more objective research would be more helpful. It's a problem that will never be adequately addressed until we properly understand it.

 

[V-Spec]

So what happens if someone has themselves been abused as a child, and as the result of the emotional and psychological damage that has been done to them, subsequently finds themselves attracted to children. Is that their fault?

It's the same as the brain tumour example.

I'd say that if the person is an adult who is attracted to children as a result of previous abuse, then their feelings are the results of circumstances beyond their control.

Is it a reasonable defence? if somebody sexually abuses a child, then claims they did so due to their own previous abuse - it could be a mitigating circumstance if proven true, but I don't think it's a solid defence at all, as adults we all have responsibilities and a sense of right or wrong, I don't see it as an excuse personally.

Unfortunate yes - excuse, no.

I don't have a view on this, because I haven't seen the evidence on either side. However, it's common for women to have rape fantasies. Would you argue that all those women will eventually progress to trying to get themselves actually raped?

It's not rape then is it.

 

[platypus]

It's not rape then is it.

You've both ignored his question and missed his point.

 

[schnoodles]

It's the same as the brain tumour example.

I'd say that if the person is an adult who is attracted to children as a result of previous abuse, then their feelings are the results of circumstances beyond their control.

Is it a reasonable defence? if somebody sexually abuses a child, then claims they did so due to their own previous abuse - it could be a mitigating circumstance if proven true, but I don't think it's a solid defence at all, as adults we all have responsibilities and a sense of right or wrong, I don't see it as an excuse personally.

Unfortunate yes - excuse, no.

We're talking about attraction. Attraction, in that example, is something that can't be helped. It's the result of the damage done to someone. Acting on that attraction is a different issue, but in terms of the attraction itself, it can hardly be defined as the person's fault.

It's not rape then is it.

Well if you put yourself in a harmful situation where things will happen to you that you don't really want... but that's a whole other discussion. So let's keep it simple. Does everyone who fantasises about shagging their mate's girlfriend inevitably go on to actually do it?

 

[elmarko]

Technically if the person put themselves in a situation deliberately for it to happen or not is immaterial. If I walked around the street hoping somebody would kick my head in, if it occurred the person could still be charged with assault & it would still be assault.

In the scenario for rape it would still be rape if she didn't give the assailant permission & attempted to stop them (regardless as to if she secretly wanted them to) - because either way, the male party in this example forced themselves onto what they believed to be an unwilling participant.

It's genuinely refreshing to see an intelligent and nuanced point of view posted on an internet forum

Cheers , sometimes it's akin to running in mud trying to get across the idea that life isn't just a series of binary switches.

 

[V-Spec]

We're talking about attraction. Attraction, in that example, is something that can't be helped. It's the result of the damage done to someone. Acting on that attraction is a different issue, but in terms of the attraction itself, it can hardly be defined as the person's fault.

If someone has been sexually abused, and grows up being attracted to kids as a result of that abuse - then yes I agree somewhat, it's absurd to attribute 100% of the blame towards them.

But I imagine this only occurs in a certain number of cases, there was no evidence in the Ian Watkins trial that he'd been abused as a child that I saw (I didn't read all of it, so I may be wrong) none with gary glitter, or jimmy saville as far as I could tell.

Does everyone who fantasises about shagging their mate's girlfriend inevitably go on to actually do it?

Many do, people cheat on each other and have affairs all the time, but I don't really see why you make the comparison.

 

[schnoodles]

If someone has been sexually abused, and grows up being attracted to kids as a result of that abuse - then yes I agree somewhat, it's absurd to attribute 100% of the blame towards them.

But I imagine this only occurs in a certain number of cases, there was no evidence in the Ian Watkins trial that he'd been abused as a child that I saw (I didn't read all of it, so I may be wrong) none with gary glitter, or jimmy saville as far as I could tell.

But we can't know that, can we? What we can know is that it's well documented that abuse often leads to the abused becoming abusers in turn. There simply isn't enough information available to determine what percentages of paedophiles this represents. So again, what we need is more research and some objective understanding of the causes.

Many do, people cheat on each other and have affairs all the time, but I don't really see why you make the comparison.
Because you said....

You were arguing that fantasy will inevitably progress to action. Some people chat, but that doesn't mean that fantasy inevitably leads to actual cheating.

 

[V-Spec]

In the scenario for rape it would still be rape if she didn't give the assailant permission & attempted to stop them (regardless as to if she secretly wanted them to) - because either way, the male party in this example forced themselves onto what they believed to be an unwilling participant.

[mass noun]
crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will:

The fact she went out looking for it and succeeded, meant it wasn't against her will, and therefore isn't rape.

Ok, she could tell lies and have the man convicted of the offence, but it wouldn't be an actual clear cut case of rape at all, because it wasn't actually against her will - she wanted it to happen.

 

[schnoodles]

The fact she went out looking for it and succeeded, meant it wasn't against her will, and therefore isn't rape.

Ok, she could tell lies and have the man convicted of the offence, but it wouldn't be an actual clear cut case of rape at all, because it wasn't actually against her will - she wanted it to happen.

Erm... if someone says "no", it's rape.

 

[Amp34]

Developing a brain tumour is bad luck and doesn't really concern morality.

In terms of morality - having such a disease could well make somebody behave immorally, or alter their behaviour - but it could be argued that the reasons for such behaviour are through no fault of their own - in which you could hold a reasonable amount of empathy for somebody in that situation, whilst due to disease their behaviour or thought process could be immoral, they themselves perhaps wouldn't be.

Somebody who is "fine" medically, but experiences these thoughts without being worried, or concerned - could perhaps be abandoning their own morality, they're aware that they're attracted to children, but so long as it's in their head they see it as ok,

Whilst both people are experiencing immoral thoughts, one is simply doing so through bad luck, the other through perverted choice

You appear to not understand what morals actually are. Morals aren't some hard and fast thing, they ebb and flow, change on a whim and are different for every person.

Someone can't really abandon their own morality, someone can change what they think is right and wrong but not abandon morals. We do it all the tone, from personal morals like becoming more capitalist as you get more money or societally, such as believing being gay isn't a sin or immoral.