Caporegime
- Joined
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Carry on. 
[MAFIA] The Thirteen Doctors
- Thread starter JeditOjanen
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Associate
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Shami, your blatant attempts to discredit the people voting for you are completely transparent to me.
iviv and I are not a co-ordinated team. I call out lurkers because they are anti-town. You post more, but it's not useful. You argue ad infinitum. And I admit, you're good at arguing, probably better than I am. Good for you, but it doesn't make you right. However if that bothers iviv, that is his call and nothing to do with me.
It may surprise you to know Shami, that I have already shared my information in the form of a "read list". http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25966683&postcount=279
There is probably more to add since then, but a) I haven't collated it yet and b) I've been too busy arguing finer points of what a fact is, with you. If you insist, I would be happy to post an updated version of my read lists when I get home from work.
iviv and I are not a co-ordinated team. I call out lurkers because they are anti-town. You post more, but it's not useful. You argue ad infinitum. And I admit, you're good at arguing, probably better than I am. Good for you, but it doesn't make you right. However if that bothers iviv, that is his call and nothing to do with me.
It may surprise you to know Shami, that I have already shared my information in the form of a "read list". http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=25966683&postcount=279
There is probably more to add since then, but a) I haven't collated it yet and b) I've been too busy arguing finer points of what a fact is, with you. If you insist, I would be happy to post an updated version of my read lists when I get home from work.
Caporegime
Yeah I've read that, it is 3 days ago and thus almost completely out of date.
It takes two to argue, you've been doing it just as much therefore you must be anti-town as well?
I may have argued my point, that's because I'm not going to sit back and be told I'm playing the game wrong by two people who seem intent on controlling the town, have already helped lynch one townie and now seem intent on lynching another.
It takes two to argue, you've been doing it just as much therefore you must be anti-town as well?
I may have argued my point, that's because I'm not going to sit back and be told I'm playing the game wrong by two people who seem intent on controlling the town, have already helped lynch one townie and now seem intent on lynching another.
Associate
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3 days, 1.5 of which we were unable to post, and I have offered to update it.
Still, there is the evidence that I have been trying to help the town. I challenge you to do the same.
Still, there is the evidence that I have been trying to help the town. I challenge you to do the same.
Soldato
I hope you lot are going to kiss and make up when all this is done! 
As entertaining as this is, it is just distracting. Although Shami does raise an interesting point about controlling the town. However they have really always just focussed on you Shami, which doesn't sound like scum behaviour to me. I also agree with many of their points. So sorry Shami, you were my number 1 suspect on day 1 and nothing yet has changed. It would also put an end to this distraction one way or another.
##vote shamikebab
As entertaining as this is, it is just distracting. Although Shami does raise an interesting point about controlling the town. However they have really always just focussed on you Shami, which doesn't sound like scum behaviour to me. I also agree with many of their points. So sorry Shami, you were my number 1 suspect on day 1 and nothing yet has changed. It would also put an end to this distraction one way or another.
##vote shamikebab
Caporegime
I'm writing a big post unless people start accusing me of lurking again!
Soldato
It seems that my attempt at a clear the air post has just caused more issues.
Let me make this clear: You are not collecting evidence. Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Facts are things that are known or proved to be true. On day one, nothing can be proved to be true until someone is lynched - then the fact whether they were town or not becomes clear. Then we have evidence.
What you are doing is surmising. Surmising is to suppose that something is true without the evidence to confirm it. The very first synonym for surmising, in a thesaurus is, ..... to guess.
This is all, however, semantics and I agree, a distraction. What I object to is someone pointing the finger at me when they are guessing and tell me it's based on evidence.
##vote iviv
If it were as simple as reading a wiki, then we would all read the wiki, identified the mafia instantly and we'd be drinking tea by the seaside. My point was, and remains, that targetting the quiet people isn't the be-all and end-all - it's failed before, every single time.
Your reasoning is completely flawed - right from the start. Until that sinks in, this is pointless.
Let me make this clear: You are not collecting evidence. Evidence is the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid. Facts are things that are known or proved to be true. On day one, nothing can be proved to be true until someone is lynched - then the fact whether they were town or not becomes clear. Then we have evidence.
What you are doing is surmising. Surmising is to suppose that something is true without the evidence to confirm it. The very first synonym for surmising, in a thesaurus is, ..... to guess.
This is all, however, semantics and I agree, a distraction. What I object to is someone pointing the finger at me when they are guessing and tell me it's based on evidence.
No, you labelled me as anti-town when I said I didn't like your approach and felt it wasn't the right one.
Yet more "I'm pro-town" and if you argue with me you must be "anti-town".
The above two quotes go together because they are extremely relevant. iviv talks about hunting down the mafia, then decides to vote for Shami because he's a distraction. Now that is a fact. That is evidence I can base an opinion on. That is why I say:
##vote iviv
You nailed me in game two when you fell for the mafia patter. I think you're town because you act like I do when I'm town. If you've lead me astray here, I'm going to hunt you down and make you eat a kebab from my local - THEY'RE DISGUSTING!
Soldato
Lol pookie
Caporegime
Day 1
Brabbinho - Nothing. Notes I made are 'Votes for Chris' and doesn't think Pookie is scum
Pookie - Suspicion of Chirs, Iviv and maybe Kaiowas ended up voting for Chris.
Fortyseven - Thinks Iviv may be scum, votes for Pookie without reasoning. Then questions the Chris/Iviv combo twice before unvoting and voting for me. Gets Lynched
Kaiowas - Votes Psymonkee, claims he trusts Iviv, Chris and Egon. Claims Chris shouldn't be lynched. Votes 47, claims Pookie is town. Wants me lynched but doesn't vote for me. Admits there is no case against 47 but we need a lynch.
Egon - Votes Iviv, Votes Chris, then claims both Iviv and Chris are town. Claims Shorttricky and Leprechaun are definitely town and again states Iviv and Chris are town. Displays suspicion of me, states Chris is town yet again. Votes for me.
Iviv - Proclaims innocence, votes Psymonkee. Claims he's town again. Says he will be night killed. Votes Leprechaun. Displays concern at votes for Chris. Claims he's town again and will be killed at night. AGAIN claims he's town and will be killed at night. And again claims he's town and will be NK'd! Claims regular townies don't need to prove themselves (interesting...) Votes Brabbinho but admits we need consensus. Votes for 47 to push for a lynch. Cklaims he's town one last time and will be nk'd.
Pudney - Suspicious of Brabbinho, votes 47.
Leprechaun - Questions Iviv and Chris voting for Psymonkee. Votes Chris. Questions Chris again, claims Iviv is probably town. Unvotes. Votes 47 late after pressure from Iviv.
Killswitch - Thinks Chris and Iviv are town, Egon and Psymonkee could be in league. Reluctant to vote for Iviv or Chris. Votes Pookie, no reason. Votes 47 as we need a lynch.
Shorttricky - Accuses Chris of being a distraction, suspcious of Pookie and Leprechaun. Votes Pookie. Votes 47 as we need a lynch
Chriscubed - Votes Psymonkee following Iviv. Claims he's town. Accuses Shorttricky, Psymonkee, me and Killswitch of lurking. Votes Shorttricky. Claims the votes against him are an agenda. Hopes Iviw won't be NK'd. Votes Pookie, reasoning is he was going after him. Claims he's town again. Says he is town again. Claims again that he's voting for Pookie because he was opposing him and Iviv. Questions why Brabbinho is voting for him. Claims Pookie and Shami are mafia.
Psymonkee – Suspcious of Iviv, no vote but said he would have voted for Chris
Day 2
Egon – Accuses Shamikebab, votes Shamikebab
Iviv – Votes Shamikebab, refuses to share information and says I'm a distraction. Admits he isn't sure whether I am mafia or not.
Leprechaun – Defends me
Killswitch – Defends me
Chris – Claims he's town again, accuses me and votes for me
No-one else has said anything notable yet today imo.
So lets analyse that. I feel the town has split into 3 broad groups. You can clearly see from start to finish that Iviv and Chris have tried to control the town from the very start and have both repeatedly been proclaiming themselves and each other as town. Chris you could argue was trying to defend himself but Iviv only got one early vote and change but has repeatedly proclaimed himself town and claiming he will be killed by the mafia. At one point he even claimed that real townies didn't need to say they were!! Kaiowas and Egon have both joined in with this 'alliance' to a lesser extent. Kaiowas although he has been suspicious of me (but oddly didn't vote for me early on) has at least made some sense but Egon has been all over the place. Voting for both Iviv and Chris before then claiming repeatedly that they were both town. Also seems convinced that Shorttricky and Leprechaun are town. Ends up voting for me after saying Chris is town again.
The next group is the quiet people and people that were swayed by the alliance mentioned above, some people I had so few notes about (Brabbinho, Pudney, Psymonkee) that it's so difficult to say at this point. Others like Leprechaun and Shorttricky have been active but I haven't made many notes.
The final group is the group that has opposed the Chris/Iviv combo at some point. First up we have Fortyseven who initially raised the possibility that Iviv may be scum and several times questioned the Chris/Iviv combo. His lynching was highly suspicious as reading through it it didn't feel like anyone had a reason for it. Several people sauid he was the most likely out of the remaining candidates and several more towards the end said we needed a lynch (which was true) but whether this was attempting to save one of the other candidates (likely Pookie or Chris) I'm not sure.I think Fortyseven made a mistake with his Pookie vote without reasoning and then the bandwagon started rolling. Pookie showed suspicion of Chris Iviv and Kaiowas to a lesser extent but after first 47, then Chris, Killswitch and Shorttricky all vote for him starts trying to save his own hide.
Lastly myself. I'd like to take this time to explain my actions. I have been perhaps a touch negative this came, this is largely in response to the incredibly aggressive play by the 'alliance' mentioned above who have continually questioned the content of my posts (and yet oddly avoided the content where I questioned their play) Frankly they have been so overbearing in the thread with their continuous circle proclamations of their own and each others innocence that I feel their behaviour is actually harming the townies. I now have three votes (all by the alliance I have opposed, I expect Kaiowas to follow shortly) and if I end up being lynched then this alliance that has so dominated the town will have helped lynch two townies. The remaining townies need to be stronger and make their voice heard.
Brabbinho - Nothing. Notes I made are 'Votes for Chris' and doesn't think Pookie is scum
Pookie - Suspicion of Chirs, Iviv and maybe Kaiowas ended up voting for Chris.
Fortyseven - Thinks Iviv may be scum, votes for Pookie without reasoning. Then questions the Chris/Iviv combo twice before unvoting and voting for me. Gets Lynched
Kaiowas - Votes Psymonkee, claims he trusts Iviv, Chris and Egon. Claims Chris shouldn't be lynched. Votes 47, claims Pookie is town. Wants me lynched but doesn't vote for me. Admits there is no case against 47 but we need a lynch.
Egon - Votes Iviv, Votes Chris, then claims both Iviv and Chris are town. Claims Shorttricky and Leprechaun are definitely town and again states Iviv and Chris are town. Displays suspicion of me, states Chris is town yet again. Votes for me.
Iviv - Proclaims innocence, votes Psymonkee. Claims he's town again. Says he will be night killed. Votes Leprechaun. Displays concern at votes for Chris. Claims he's town again and will be killed at night. AGAIN claims he's town and will be killed at night. And again claims he's town and will be NK'd! Claims regular townies don't need to prove themselves (interesting...) Votes Brabbinho but admits we need consensus. Votes for 47 to push for a lynch. Cklaims he's town one last time and will be nk'd.
Pudney - Suspicious of Brabbinho, votes 47.
Leprechaun - Questions Iviv and Chris voting for Psymonkee. Votes Chris. Questions Chris again, claims Iviv is probably town. Unvotes. Votes 47 late after pressure from Iviv.
Killswitch - Thinks Chris and Iviv are town, Egon and Psymonkee could be in league. Reluctant to vote for Iviv or Chris. Votes Pookie, no reason. Votes 47 as we need a lynch.
Shorttricky - Accuses Chris of being a distraction, suspcious of Pookie and Leprechaun. Votes Pookie. Votes 47 as we need a lynch
Chriscubed - Votes Psymonkee following Iviv. Claims he's town. Accuses Shorttricky, Psymonkee, me and Killswitch of lurking. Votes Shorttricky. Claims the votes against him are an agenda. Hopes Iviw won't be NK'd. Votes Pookie, reasoning is he was going after him. Claims he's town again. Says he is town again. Claims again that he's voting for Pookie because he was opposing him and Iviv. Questions why Brabbinho is voting for him. Claims Pookie and Shami are mafia.
Psymonkee – Suspcious of Iviv, no vote but said he would have voted for Chris
Day 2
Egon – Accuses Shamikebab, votes Shamikebab
Iviv – Votes Shamikebab, refuses to share information and says I'm a distraction. Admits he isn't sure whether I am mafia or not.
Leprechaun – Defends me
Killswitch – Defends me
Chris – Claims he's town again, accuses me and votes for me
No-one else has said anything notable yet today imo.
So lets analyse that. I feel the town has split into 3 broad groups. You can clearly see from start to finish that Iviv and Chris have tried to control the town from the very start and have both repeatedly been proclaiming themselves and each other as town. Chris you could argue was trying to defend himself but Iviv only got one early vote and change but has repeatedly proclaimed himself town and claiming he will be killed by the mafia. At one point he even claimed that real townies didn't need to say they were!! Kaiowas and Egon have both joined in with this 'alliance' to a lesser extent. Kaiowas although he has been suspicious of me (but oddly didn't vote for me early on) has at least made some sense but Egon has been all over the place. Voting for both Iviv and Chris before then claiming repeatedly that they were both town. Also seems convinced that Shorttricky and Leprechaun are town. Ends up voting for me after saying Chris is town again.
The next group is the quiet people and people that were swayed by the alliance mentioned above, some people I had so few notes about (Brabbinho, Pudney, Psymonkee) that it's so difficult to say at this point. Others like Leprechaun and Shorttricky have been active but I haven't made many notes.
The final group is the group that has opposed the Chris/Iviv combo at some point. First up we have Fortyseven who initially raised the possibility that Iviv may be scum and several times questioned the Chris/Iviv combo. His lynching was highly suspicious as reading through it it didn't feel like anyone had a reason for it. Several people sauid he was the most likely out of the remaining candidates and several more towards the end said we needed a lynch (which was true) but whether this was attempting to save one of the other candidates (likely Pookie or Chris) I'm not sure.I think Fortyseven made a mistake with his Pookie vote without reasoning and then the bandwagon started rolling. Pookie showed suspicion of Chris Iviv and Kaiowas to a lesser extent but after first 47, then Chris, Killswitch and Shorttricky all vote for him starts trying to save his own hide.
Lastly myself. I'd like to take this time to explain my actions. I have been perhaps a touch negative this came, this is largely in response to the incredibly aggressive play by the 'alliance' mentioned above who have continually questioned the content of my posts (and yet oddly avoided the content where I questioned their play) Frankly they have been so overbearing in the thread with their continuous circle proclamations of their own and each others innocence that I feel their behaviour is actually harming the townies. I now have three votes (all by the alliance I have opposed, I expect Kaiowas to follow shortly) and if I end up being lynched then this alliance that has so dominated the town will have helped lynch two townies. The remaining townies need to be stronger and make their voice heard.
Caporegime
*that should be game not came at the end 
Soldato
Can't say I'm convinced by your argument though Pookie. Your hard line on evidence and fact is a bit of a moot point because I assume the method you just used to vote iviv is the same one we all use....,including chriscubed.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 12 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 26,776
I hope you lot are going to kiss and make up when all this is done!
As entertaining as this is, it is just distracting. Although Shami does raise an interesting point about controlling the town. However they have really always just focussed on you Shami, which doesn't sound like scum behaviour to me. I also agree with many of their points. So sorry Shami, you were my number 1 suspect on day 1 and nothing yet has changed. It would also put an end to this distraction one way or another.
I think you're making a mistake, I can see exactly where Shami is coming from, there are two people here in particular who aren't just trying to guide any more, but control. I'm interested in hearing what iviv has to say later on.
Soldato
well shamikebab, that is quite a thorough analysis of what has happened, and i am inclined to agree on most of it. the point about the "alliance" is quite true, they are swaying the town, they push for lynches and get them on....townies, admittedly i joined, but i was swayed and tbh we did need a lynch. the problem with this is that all the mafia have to do is sit back and wait for the "alliance" to their job for them and kill innocent townies, while the mafia kill of even more townies. This is assuming the "alliance" isn't mafia, if the "alliance" is mafia, then they are playing one hell of a game forcing through lynches and then NK'S (i now know what this actually means 
) if special roles didnt come into play.
) if special roles didnt come into play.
Soldato
No, it isn't. iviv says we need to hunt down mafia and then selects Shamikebab, not because he thinks he's mafia, but because he's a distraction. That's a contradiction - and enough reason for me to vote for him. He's been proclaiming himself the saviour of the town since day one and it seems that if you shout something loud enough in this thread, people believe you.
Soldato
Good post Shami. Although, naturally I disagree with your assessment of my actions. Your observations about Iviv are interesting though.
I certainly wouldn't say I've been all over the place, I initially questioned iviv and chris's approach to the game but their reasoning makes more sense to me than the negative stance you took to begin with. Iviv and Chris definitely seem more town to me. I would say I've been pretty consistent in that respect as I changed my mind very early on and have stuck with it, I also made my decision on you very early on and have stuck with that too.
I find it difficult to see how changing my mind once can be seen as 'all over the place'.
I certainly wouldn't say I've been all over the place, I initially questioned iviv and chris's approach to the game but their reasoning makes more sense to me than the negative stance you took to begin with. Iviv and Chris definitely seem more town to me. I would say I've been pretty consistent in that respect as I changed my mind very early on and have stuck with it, I also made my decision on you very early on and have stuck with that too.
I find it difficult to see how changing my mind once can be seen as 'all over the place'.
Caporegime
I'm not sure whether they are mafia or just misguided. I'm most convinced that Kaiowas isn't.
Soldato
I think you misunderstood, I wasn't disagreeing with you about iviv, more the argument you used against Chris.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 12 Mar 2009
- Posts
- 26,776
I don't think Kaiowas has shown any signs of being Scum either, and for what it's worth he has shown a pretty good sixth sense for things in the other games. Iviv and Chris have certainly been quite aggressive today and I'm interested in hearing what Iviv has to say. His reply will be what I base my vote on.
Soldato
Interesting post from Shami and good to see some thoughts being made public. I'm particularly intrigued by the 3 groups as I'm beginning to suspect that what we're seeing is infighting between 2 groups of townies (primarily at least, i'm not going to rule out the odd undesirable having attached themselves somewhere) with differing opinions on how to run this town whilst a third group are sitting by watching it all unfold.
It's that third group that I'm most interested in as it would be the most likely place for the scum to be hiding. I'd be surprised if 2 out of 3 weren't in that group.
It's that third group that I'm most interested in as it would be the most likely place for the scum to be hiding. I'd be surprised if 2 out of 3 weren't in that group.
Well I'm finally back from work so I shall post my thoughts.
1. I don't see where the Shami bandwagon has arisen from or is going. Other than his frustrated day 1 vote for Chris he has done nothing to set my pulse raising to suggest he is mafia. If I am proven wrong and he is mafia then this could come back to haunt me later.
2. I haven't often done this in previous games but I agree with Shami and Pookie's overall thoughts on how the game is being played. Day 1 is a lottery, and so far the town hasn't bought a winning ticket in 4 games. There is no way of discerning any facts from day one until we have had the lynch and a NK. As we haven't had an NK we don't have a lot to go on to decided who is mafia apart from "gut feelings" or "itches". Rather than being "defeatist" as Iviv describes him I think Shami is just being realistic about the process. I think Pookie has pretty much got it nailed with hi summation in post #467.
3. There are 2 people very much leading the town, and so far all there are providing as reasoning is that they are pro-town and those they accuse are acting in an anti-town way. It would be a very easy mafia ploy to lead the town in this way. Removing a townie because they are "distracting" would be highly beneficial to the mafia rather than rooting out an actual mafia member for the town. Just because people aren't following wiki guidelines doesn't make them anti-town.
4. Leprechaun NK'ing hey? I'll take that as a typo, and pray that I'm right. As for the Leprechaun vs Tricky feud one may or may not be mafia but I'd need to hear more from both of them.
5. I'm looking forward to hearing more from Psy when he posts later as he has been pretty quiet but normally has a good handling on things.
With all the above considered for now:
##vote Iviv
1. I don't see where the Shami bandwagon has arisen from or is going. Other than his frustrated day 1 vote for Chris he has done nothing to set my pulse raising to suggest he is mafia. If I am proven wrong and he is mafia then this could come back to haunt me later.
2. I haven't often done this in previous games but I agree with Shami and Pookie's overall thoughts on how the game is being played. Day 1 is a lottery, and so far the town hasn't bought a winning ticket in 4 games. There is no way of discerning any facts from day one until we have had the lynch and a NK. As we haven't had an NK we don't have a lot to go on to decided who is mafia apart from "gut feelings" or "itches". Rather than being "defeatist" as Iviv describes him I think Shami is just being realistic about the process. I think Pookie has pretty much got it nailed with hi summation in post #467.
3. There are 2 people very much leading the town, and so far all there are providing as reasoning is that they are pro-town and those they accuse are acting in an anti-town way. It would be a very easy mafia ploy to lead the town in this way. Removing a townie because they are "distracting" would be highly beneficial to the mafia rather than rooting out an actual mafia member for the town. Just because people aren't following wiki guidelines doesn't make them anti-town.
4. Leprechaun NK'ing hey? I'll take that as a typo, and pray that I'm right. As for the Leprechaun vs Tricky feud one may or may not be mafia but I'd need to hear more from both of them.
5. I'm looking forward to hearing more from Psy when he posts later as he has been pretty quiet but normally has a good handling on things.
With all the above considered for now:
##vote Iviv