US: Making a Murderer (Netflix)

[[ASSE]Hinchy]

Got three episodes left in this and as has been said above it is all very frustrating leaving me and my girlfriend in disbelief! It is all heavily biased though and evidently weighted towards Avery.

The saddest thing in the whole programme for me that makes me feel genuinely horrible is seeing his poor mum going through it all. The wear and tear it appears to have been taking on her, seeing her looking down and away from the camera with very little to say so often is sad.

Brendan though.......!

 

[MookJong]

Anyone got any theories?

Spoiler

It seems highly likely the RAV4 was identified by the officer 2 days before being found by the volunteer team. Could it be that the vehicle was on Avery land when spotted and the key was in the car? The key was subsequently taken and moved to the house?

I am not averse to the idea that Avery did it but then evidence was manipulated. I just can't work out what actually happened. The blood in the back of the RAV4 is the weird thing. Clearly the body was stored in there for a period then burnt later. Maybe Avery was hiding the body in there from the family before he burnt it up the next day.

I just can't believe Brenden was involved at all. I am convinced if he was he would have eventually cracked and told the true story. This story would have involved the car and the multiple sites of the burn.

 

[antijoke]

Watched 2 episodes so far and I am in total WTF territory.

 

[ChroniC]

Anyone got any theories?

Spoiler

It seems highly likely the RAV4 was identified by the officer 2 days before being found by the volunteer team. Could it be that the vehicle was on Avery land when spotted and the key was in the car? The key was subsequently taken and moved to the house?

I am not averse to the idea that Avery did it but then evidence was manipulated. I just can't work out what actually happened. The blood in the back of the RAV4 is the weird thing. Clearly the body was stored in there for a period then burnt later. Maybe Avery was hiding the body in there from the family before he burnt it up the next day.

I just can't believe Brenden was involved at all. I am convinced if he was he would have eventually cracked and told the true story. This story would have involved the car and the multiple sites of the burn.

Spoiler

I said from the 3rd episode during the court case against the state that Sgt Colburn looked guilty as hell, he knew something (I don't know what) but when I watched the episode where he was heard saying what the licence plate was and what car it was before it had been found and with no prior knowledge of either, I was shocked.
It does seem a stretch of logic to believe that him and Lenk want to get the court case thrown out by making Avery look guilty, but would they go so far as to kill and innocent woman. I don't know, but since those two officers were the ones who supposedly found the key on the floor, (not on the first day) and another officer mentioning that it was not initially there.

Avery is either unbelievably stupid, or innocent. I can't work out either, since leaving a car so close to the entrance of the yard is either lazy and indictive of someone who wants to go back to jail, or it's conviently placed for easy finding by someone else.

This tv is excellent, simply by the way they are presenting the case as him being guilty and then you believe innocent, and then guilty again.
Very well done, and has left my completely aghast at time.

I am appauled personally at some of the things the judge decided on. 1 being that the defence were not allowed to imply a third party were responsible. That made their case very very hard to defend. Especially with regard to the lack of investigation into he ex or roommate, and the fact that someone had access to her phone several days after her dissapearence.

Loving this show!

 

[dr_volki]

I'll start watching this tonight, sounds in a similar vein to a podcast called Serial. Looked into a murder of a girl Hae Min Lee and showed some doubts on the evidence against Adnan Syed. Worth a listen if your into this sort of stuff.

started with serial last night. already half way through.

 

[jas72]

Yay just finished this and resisted the urge to google for a week when watching

I said this to my wife that

Spoiler

Why did he use the car if he raped her at his house no need for the car

On the assumption that she was burned at the quarry if he did it why take her bones and the car back to his house incriminating him?

Only the FBI could test the blood in the vial which was clearly tampered with probably by Lenk.

On sentencing the judge took into account his previous convictions for which he had already been exonerated.

It wouldn't surprise me that Holbach didn't like the guy the family were outsiders and not liked by the community do no surprise there

The bullet fragment that was contaminated during testing was not found anywhere near the body bones but in the garage that despite close inspection by forensics turned up not one other shred of Holbach DNA even when the dug up the crack in the floor no dna in the trailer either even though Kratz used dassys confession in summing up the avery case to the jury (low blow)

I could go on for hours ....

 

[ChroniC]

Yay just finished this and resisted the urge to google for a week when watching

I said this to my wife that

Spoiler

Why did he use the car if he raped her at his house no need for the car
Someone said before he might have stored her in it, although so might someone else for transport. Hardly any evidence to prove it was him though

On the assumption that she was burned at the quarry if he did it why take her bones and the car back to his house incriminating him?
This one baffled me, at the same time who would burn the remains and scatter them in two locations, seem easier to put them in one when framing someone

Only the FBI could test the blood in the vial which was clearly tampered with probably by Lenk.
Definitely by Lenk imo. Him and sgt colburn looked so guilty of something

On sentencing the judge took into account his previous convictions for which he had already been exonerated.

It wouldn't surprise me that Holbach didn't like the guy the family were outsiders and not liked by the community do no surprise there

The bullet fragment that was contaminated during testing was not found anywhere near the body bones but in the garage that despite close inspection by forensics turned up not one other shred of Holbach DNA even when the dug up the crack in the floor no dna in the trailer either even though Kratz used dassys confession in summing up the avery case to the jury (low blow)
Not only this but they made it out as if he raped, cut and shot her in two locations, the bedroom and garage and yet not a single piece of dna was there, or a single bit of cleaning fluid found to hide it. He's either innocent of that and did it else where, or a flipping genius at forensics

I could go on for hours ....

 

[antijoke]

Upto episode 8, I just don't think he did it, the cops, especially Lenk and Colbourne are about as dodgy as they come, and I wouldn't entertain the idea they killed her, but I certainly believe the planted evidence to frame Avery.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ex/flatmate were involved, nor would I be at all surprised if that Tadych guy was the killer.

 

[Loki]

Compelling viewing upto now. Episode 4 done but wow, nothing but utter contempt for the cops

 

[jas72]

Anyone got any theories?

Spoiler

It seems highly likely the RAV4 was identified by the officer 2 days before being found by the volunteer team. Could it be that the vehicle was on Avery land when spotted and the key was in the car? The key was subsequently taken and moved to the house?

I am not averse to the idea that Avery did it but then evidence was manipulated. I just can't work out what actually happened. The blood in the back of the RAV4 is the weird thing. Clearly the body was stored in there for a period then burnt later. Maybe Avery was hiding the body in there from the family before he burnt it up the next day.

I just can't believe Brenden was involved at all. I am convinced if he was he would have eventually cracked and told the true story. This story would have involved the car and the multiple sites of the burn.

Hey Mook

Here is my car theory.

Spoiler

The nephew did it! He killed the girl probably with BiL's help he can easily move the car on site (even if Steven saw this he wouldn't even remember since they move cars all the time) it was the brother's blood in the car (wouldn't the DNA come back a match even if it was the nephew's remember the sample was contaminated?)
The key was planted by the cops probably Lenk working on his own, he was at the site of the car find and at the trailer when the key was found (the other county cop even admitted he wasn't watching)

Spoiler

just read that he phoned her number at 4:35 that day from his phone records Also why did he phone her several times and mask his number? Why didn't they ask about this in the series? This makes the case against him a whole lot stronger

 

[antijoke]

Apparently he did *67 all the time as he was a private person.

 

[v0n]

Ok, for those that ventured into this thread wondering whether they should sacrifice 10 hours to watch some documentary - guys - just DO IT. Force yourself through the first 15-20 minutes, some will find it hard to get involved in some hick story full of ugly people instead of well casted fiction, but IT IS WORTH IT. By episode 3 the "plot" will better than anything you've seen across entire seasons of crime dramas. By episode 4 your will be screaming at your screen. Just do it, it is worth 10 hours of your life.

 

[Spit]

Have you all watched Dear Zachary on YouTube? That's messed up.

 

[Sin_Chase]

It started slow but I binged watched this in 2 sittings.

The emotions I felt were varied...disgust, anger, absolute bewilderment, frustration. I just cannot believe that this was allowed to happen and went down the way it did.

Spoiler

The conduct of the Law Enforcement (and to some degree specialist 'expert' persons) was shocking. Poor scene management, evidence recovery. Absolutely NO regard for continuity and a list as long as my arm of failings which, one would hope, have a court throw a case out in the UK.

I wanted to punch the screen when Len, Brandon's own representation was stitching him up.

The FBI 'Doctor' providing expert opinion was an absolute joke. What fantasy. That he was challenged on offering scientifically sound opinion on untested material and STUCK by his assertions and opinions. Absolutely bonkers.

The most shocking and disappointing thing is that jury in both cases returned guilty verdicts on the evidence offered. WHAT evidence?! There was no way that the evidence offered proved beyond all reasonable doubt. You have to question the same evidence even on the balance of probability. The holes the defense were able to offer in the evidence were compelling and factually sourced.

Just....WTF?!

 

[Semple]

Haven't seen it all, but one thing that really got me...

Spoiler

When they checked the DNA on the key, they could only find Steven Avery's DNA. One of the lawyers pointed out that none of Teresa's DNA was on the key, which is very suspicious considering it was her car, her DNA would have been plastered all over it. Which obviously leads us to believe the key was cleaned of DNA before Steven's DNA was wiped over it.

Also the vial of Steven's blood had a hole in the top just large enough for a needle. Surely this is clear evidence of deliberately tampering with evidence, and any blood related evidence should have been thrown out by the court.

Lastly, something i may have misheard, but wasn't the officers from the original sheriffs office allowed on site to help with searches. Surely that's a conflict of interest seeing as he had a $36 million lawsuit against them. They would obviously be personally out to get him.

The whole thing stinks of corruption to me, and i'm absolutely amazed how a case even made it through court. Any decent lawyer would have pointed out a dozen holes in the prosecutions theory and had it thrown out of court.

 

[naefeart]

Spoiler

When they checked the DNA on the key, they could only find Steven Avery's DNA. One of the lawyers pointed out that none of Teresa's DNA was on the key, which is very suspicious considering it was her car, her DNA would have been plastered all over it. Which obviously leads us to believe the key was cleaned of DNA before Steven's DNA was wiped over it.

Also the vial of Steven's blood had a hole in the top just large enough for a needle. Surely this is clear evidence of deliberately tampering with evidence, and any blood related evidence should have been thrown out by the court.

Lastly, something i may have misheard, but wasn't the officers from the original sheriffs office allowed on site to help with searches. Surely that's a conflict of interest seeing as he had a $36 million lawsuit against them. They would obviously be personally out to get him.

The whole thing stinks of corruption to me, and i'm absolutely amazed how a case even made it through court. Any decent lawyer would have pointed out a dozen holes in the prosecutions theory and had it thrown out of court.

Watched up to Ep4 last night and the whole thing stinks to high heaven

I can't understand why the cops and DA were so determined to stitch Avery up in the first place. Also while totally ignoring the other suspect that other officials had raised concerns over. Are they so powerful that they simply don't care who goes to jail and feel they are beyond reproach?

And then Avery getting fitted up for the next murder... they key, the cops from before being involved, Brendan's interviews... WTF???

My blood was boiling while watching this and I found myself screaming at the TV more than once.

America. Land of the free. Really?

 

[v0n]

The conduct of the Law Enforcement (...)
The most shocking and disappointing thing is that jury in both cases returned verdicts on the evidence offered (...)
Just....WTF?!

When they checked the DNA (...) Also the vial (...) The whole thing stinks of corruption (...) Any decent lawyer (...)

The strength of this documentary is that it is absolutely biased, so it skipped through almost entire prosecution statement and filtered out the picture painted to judge and jury, just to show you that glimpse of the evil happening on the other side of the bench.

We only see the public facing nature of Avery family through tiny, little slip ups in the documentary - from the third party anecdotes about Steven chasing passing cars while rubbing his bishop, through defence quoting that "he does not even own any underwear" to brief mentions that some of the family members were perhaps convicted before. The picture of one big happy family being torn apart and everyone in the hood maintaining their support for Avery's and Dassey's is far from what people directly involved in the trial saw them as at the time. This was a "*****" family of numerous convicted thugs and rapists (without taking Steven's cases into account) and family member molesters producing endless chain of misdemeanor and crime stats across several generations. Family that hated everyone and each other and were ready to point fingers at each other during and after the trials.

Everything you see in "Making a Murderer" is filtered. That innocent, loving Jodi, the second girlfriend, is a serial convicted felon with 25 cases against her ranging from repeated DUI to counterfeiting cheques. She doesn't get her life back on track until plea bargain forces her to cut ties with Avery's and move away from Manitowoc. You see it briefly in later episodes, but what you don't see is that she actually thinks Steven is guilty. And that she was scared for her life even when he was in prison. All I am saying is - after looking at 10 episodes, we don't even start to comprehend what this family was to the people and neighbours around them.

But because we had this rose tinted glasses put by the makers of the series, we could see what others were blind to or willing to overlook. We saw the entire legal apparatus, complete with law enforcement, several judges, attorneys and jury of 12 peers go out of their way and allow themselves to fake evidence, bend the boundaries of the legal system and turn their eyes away, because they despised that hick, that "*****" element so much. The civilised society vs "the stupids".

"I can find no good in any member. These people are pure evil. A friend of mine suggested: 'This is a one-branch family tree. Cut this tree down. We need to end the gene pool here.' " as the member of the defence team at some point put in writing. And cut the tree they tried and bury them deep they wanted. And you watch and you know that part of human nature isn't just some fin de siecle story, the weak side of the last generation. It's in all of us. You would not believe it if it was shown to you in any different way.

 

[antijoke]

So I'm guessing you think he's guilty then, I can't quite make it out for sure from your post.

 

[Raymond Lin]

The programme is biased, everyone knows that, however the defence is also "biased" in that they only present evidence to you that try to create reasonable doubt, and in that regard the programme has created strong reasonable doubt. I can't imagine what evidence that had been left out from the prosecution which would eradicate the reasonable doubt that it has raised. Anything short of they had video footage of the murder is going to be hard to believe the case that the prosecution put forward do not hold water.

 

[v0n]

Whatever evidence they had, it was enough to bury what we saw as "reasonable doubt".

What we have to understand, is that the entire defence didn't try to stipulate who instead of Steven was the murderer, that was impossible task. Instead it relied completely on showing that Avery was framed, pointing finger firmly at the law enforcement. Having the only choice between the hick and the sheriffs everyone involved, including media and jury of peers, as a crowd, as a group, as a society, decided to look the other way, disregard any doubts and any potential harm that might be caused to "the nasty hick" in the process, just to maintain status quo.

The true size of the bottomless rift between Avery's and entire Manitowoc filters through the cracks in the documentary by the end - the words of the judge "In terms of assessing your danger to society, the evidence forces me to conclude that you are probably the most dangerous individual ever to set foot in this courtroom" etc. As a viewer you go "how can it be, how sheltered life have you guys had in that county?" But try and understand - it is all happening in one county, effectively everyone already heard, met, came across or has an opinion on the guy, whether they believe the evidence or not. And that's how they see him. Media hates him. Sheriff muse about killiing him. Dassey's defence lawyers actively participate in trying to nail him. Maybe the idea that Avery clan nearly became the "Dynasty" magnates of the hood had something to do with it as well, maybe the fear of another lawsuit turning "those people" into millionaires, we will never know.

anticonscience asked if I think he's guilty. I don't care to be honest. If he was guilty, what was done to him was a crime. If he was not guilty, what was done to him was a crime. I'm fascinated by the mechanics of witch hunt society that was caught so red handed by this documentary and outed in public. And then I ask myself - we all encountered these types of neighbours and people in community, where you just quietly think at some point if it wouldn't be better for everyone if something just serendipitously happened to them - an earthquake, a thunder from skies, a plague of bedbugs at least. I know I have. And they were nowhere near as bad or dangerous as Avery's. No crimes of that calibre were involved. So, here it is - the society that was given the earthquake and plague stick to operate with, they can use it on that bad neighbour. The people who are willing to sweep under the carpet that operator call where the Sgt names the vehicle when given registration plate, and that opened vial, and will believe in a story of chaining and slicing with no blood and no DNA etc, etc. Just to get rid of the that tree branch. Working together to cut that blood line.