US: Making a Murderer (Netflix)

So what evidence did they have that could possibly eradicate the reasonable doubt?

Take for example - the lack of blood in the garage and the bedroom?

If that was where the stabbing and shooting took place. Where was the blood?

Either the Avery possess cleaning skills of Dexter but somehow forgot to clean off his own DNA from the keyfob. or the prosecution got that 100% wrong and didn't happen there.

Or they had the foresight of burning the body but not the foresight to crush the car.

Or how did they get an open fire hot enough to incinerate a body, it would take days of constantly throwing fuel into it.

And how does anyone know she was shot? I thought her body was burnt down to just a shin. There was no autopsy to confirm the cause of death, the cause of death put forward is speculation.

There is too much reasonable doubt.
 
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So what evidence did they have that could possibly eradicate the reasonable doubt?

Take for example - the lack of blood in the garage and the bedroom?
If that was where the stabbing and shooting took place. Where was the blood?

Bedroom use was not argued in Avery's case. They dropped first-degree sexual assault and kidnapping charges. Effectively it came down to almost something like - there might be a question where exactly (in which corner) the murder happened, but with all the bones, items, bullets and stuff - there is little doubt it was around that property. Plus accused had enough time to clean, however poorly, after his deeds.

Either the Avery losses cleaning skills of Dexter but somehow forgot to clean off his own DNA from the keyfob. or the prosecution got that 100% wrong and didn't happen there.
Or they had the foresight of burning the body but not the foresight to crush the car.

He was actually found not guilty on count of mutilating a corpse but I think that was the prosecution point almost - that he wiped the key but left his DNA on it in process. You know, IQ in low 70ies and all... profile of a half wit ef up criminal - the guy that would try to move bones out of the pit, but couldn't do all of it properly, didn't crash the car in the crasher available to him but disguised it, it stayed with jury even if they couldn't charge him for it.

And how does anyone know she was shot? I thought her body was burnt down to just a shin. There was no autopsy to confirm the cause of death, the cause of death put forward is speculation.

Pathologist found markings consistent with high velocity gun wounds IIRC.

There is too much reasonable doubt.

I agree. But here's what we didn't see (I'm just chucking these out from recent browsing about memory and links, so might be highly inaccurate):

Although defence argued that the blood DNA inside RAV4 was from the vile in Lenk's possession - not only they failed to disprove EDTA test but weirdly, if I read correctly, what we don't see on TV is that they also fail to prove that the hole in the vial was not part of a standard blood evidence procedure as piercing the tops of blood tubes was considered to be standard practice while filling them. As for broken seal on evidence - members of Avery's defense team recorded breaking into the package during Avery's appeal against his rape conviction. More importantly - Avery's DNA from sweat was also found on and under RAV4's hood and around hood latch (not shown in documentary at all). The evidence conclusively shown that Steven Avery's hand was under the hood while the accused insisted he never touched the victims car.

Bullet in the garage, although defence tried to prove it was planted afterwards, due to lack of any blood stains or splatter, was undeniably from Avery's rifle. Defence could succeed in disproving that the victim was killed inside of the garage, but couldn't prove that she was not shot or wounded with his gun, obviously the weapon would have his fingerprints, count of illegally possessing a firearm confirmed in the process.

The victim had a history of minor harassment from Avery and on that day he used fake name to schedule the appointment and phone records shown that he called her repeatedly using *67 to hide his number.

Along with the RAV4 key wiped from victims DNA (but contaminated with his sweat), police also found handcuffs and leg irons (not shown in documentary) and few other things that were wiped and free of anyone's DNA. You would think lack of DNA is good, but apparently...

Victim's phone, camera and PDA were found in Avery's barrel close to home, bones found elsewhere had burned tyre markings on them, the only place they found similar accelerant material was the fire pit next to his house and they also found 5 gallon buckets which were used to distribute the remains around other parts of property, or something to that effect.

Prosecutors also included statements from prisoners who served time with Avery during his "rape" sentence confirming that Avery talked about and showed them diagrams of a torture chamber he planned to build when he was released. This paired with multiple testimonies of neighbours and I think also family statements, police records of animal cruelty, odd behaviour, previous misdemeanors, etc painted character profile of someone highly volatile and unstable.

And just keep in mind, that this is all one close connected rural community of people with generationally mispronounced Eastern European surnames, where things like "I believe God led me to her car that day" are taken in with teary eyes. They're all beach strolling, village meeting attending, church going landowners, "upper class working farmers" I think was the term used, and there is this "*****" lot - people that don't sound like them and live in trailers on junk yard. Where in your "community" you would be within "six degrees" of someone meeting James Cameron, they were within two degrees of someone who had a story about this family, be it theft, robbery or running onto the road with ahem... junk in their hand. And there they were, looking with horror at the hard evidence and records of all of those urban myths being true, cats burning, bars trashed for handful of change, members of family being molested and the like. It's a classic "do not want"/"now or never" scenario. And with all the eyes of the world and media vans firmly on them, they still decided to purge and nuke from orbit.
 
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Just finished watching it. While this is an extraordinary case which seemingly brings out the worst of how bad the justice system can be, the way it is presented is so blatantly biased towards the Averys that the credibility of the entire documentary is in question.
 
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Just finished watching it. While this is an extraordinary case which seemingly brings out the worst of how bad the justice system can be, the way it is presented is so blatantly biased towards the Averys that the credibility of the entire documentary is in question.

It had to be done that way. You wouldn't have enough sympathy for Avery to seat through 10 hours of watching nasty guy doing nasty things if it wasn't biased. The only way you could see that moment where corrupt people did despicable things to bad people in the name of pubic good, was to dramatise Avery into Shawshank character.
 
More importantly - Avery's DNA from sweat was also found on and under RAV4's hood and around hood latch (not shown in documentary at all). The evidence conclusively shown that Steven Avery's hand was under the hood while the accused insisted he never touched the victims car.

There's no such thing as "sweat DNA" - you don't sweat out DNA. Sweat may contain nucleated skin cells which would contain it.

The prosecutors' DNA expert admitted it was possible the DNA was from blood, and that planted DNA evidence would have presented the same way.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakingaMurderer/comments/406qfo/it_was_not_proven_that_the_dna_on_the_hood_latch/

Apparently the crime scene technician didn't change their gloves between taking samples.


Bullet in the garage, although defence tried to prove it was planted afterwards, due to lack of any blood stains or splatter, was undeniably from Avery's rifle.

William Newhouse, a gun expert with the Wisconsin State Crime Lab, said he couldn't conclusively link the bullet to Avery's rifle, but it was likely fired from it. I don't know if that means that it was a .22 bullet and they found a .22 rifle, so durrrr?


Along with the RAV4 key wiped from victims DNA (but contaminated with his sweat), police also found handcuffs and leg irons (not shown in documentary) and few other things that were wiped and free of anyone's DNA. You would think lack of DNA is good, but apparently...

(still no such thing as sweat DNA)

They did find DNA on the cuffs and leg irons, from Avery and at least 1 other. Teresa's DNA was not found

Prosecutors also included statements from prisoners who served time with Avery during his "rape" sentence confirming that Avery talked about and showed them diagrams of a torture chamber he planned to build when he was released.

There's plenty of evidence to show that prisoners will say pretty much whatever a DA needs in return for a deal/benefits. It's certainly convenient, bearing in mind they didn't find the torture chamber.


There's an interesting breakdown of these (and others) here
 
There's no such thing as "sweat DNA" - you don't sweat out DNA.
Apparently the crime scene technician didn't change their gloves between taking samples.
couldn't conclusively link the bullet to Avery's rifle
(still no such thing as sweat DNA)
They did find DNA on the cuffs and leg irons, from Avery and at least 1 other. prisoners will say pretty much whatever a DA needs in return


Everyone in the media and even documentary use that term "sweat DNA" to simplify explanations. It's a good term. But, ultimately you are arguing with a wrong person - I wasn't on the jury. You are picking holes in something judge and peers already voted on, it wasn't unclear or questionable and they reached unanimous verdict in relatively short time.
 
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Sweat DNA isn't a good term, because it implies:

The evidence conclusively shown that Steven Avery's hand was under the hood

Which it doesn't.

You are picking holes in something judge and peers already voted on, it wasn't unclear or questionable and they reached unanimous verdict in relatively short time.

That's kind of the point of the whole documentary :confused:
 
Just watched the first two episodes. The timing of the stuff in the second episode seems pretty convenient. Really interested to see how things develop. I'll post more once I've caught up.
 
Sweat DNA isn't a good term, because it implies () Which it doesn't.

I didn't invent the term - it's a shortcut term used by the media, documentary, internet in this particular story, as in - blood DNA, non-blood DNA (hair etc), "sweat" DNA. I understand it might be over simplification of some highly technical matter, I accept it might be factually incorrect for habilitation and press all the wrong anorak buttons - but it is what it is. That's the term that was coined, the term that was used, everyone understood what it means. We can't convince the rest of the discussion outlets to change their non technical vocabulary, is what I'm saying.

Also, I appreciate there might be reasonable doubt about source of DNA under the hood, etc. Now. But I am not the person that decides whether Avery goes free ie. I am not the one to convince. The question I was answering was "what evidence did (prosecution) have that could possibly eradicate the reasonable doubt". During original trial. At the time. So what I wrote was factually correct - they did present "DNA under the hood" evidence/argument and defence failed to successfully argue against it. At the time. During original trial. Or is that not true?

That's kind of the point of the whole documentary :confused:

According to the two ladies behind the documentary - the point was to show a glitch, a problem with the system. And it succeeded. When you line up the arguments, streamline the story and filter things to certain degree all we could see was "reasonable doubt". And the fact that the law enforcement undeniably did terrible things to who they presumed were bad people to separate them from the people they were "protecting" at all cost.

Unfortunately, regardless of how we (the viewers) look at it now, it is not how the jury, the judge, several appeal courts, media, the neighbourhood and bizarrely - also some of the family members, several people closest to Avery, like his girlfriend, some of the defence attorneys and their staff - saw and understood evidence behind this case at the time. And the documentary won't change the original verdict. All we can discuss is whether they were blind to the things that are now so clear to us on TV screen or chose to be blind.
 
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just finished, regardless if avery did or didnt do it.. the kid has a serious learning disorder, hes telling the police what he thinks they want to hear to get him off the hook, hes so special needs he just fabricated a story to which he says he slit the women's throat then proceeds to ask what time he can go home because he has something to hand it.. he has absolutely no idea what hes saying and to make matters worse!!!!!!!! i thought his lawyer was tricking him when it played the part where he drew pictures of how the women was tied up and trying to make him confess to give the video to the court to say.. LOOK at how easy he can be swayed, in fact the little ******* phoned whoever it was and said i've got a detailed confession from him!... something very very fishy going on any person with a normal human brain can see he's not all there. The phone call to his mother was also a absolute joke, he is oblivious to what he said to the officers and his mother just said why are you saying you did something you didn't and he just replies with i dont know

sorry at my bad English i wrote this angry/confused/saddened and fast! lol
 
Come on vOn. The only reason you have any belief he's guilty is the prejudice of the rumors around him and his family life.

Just because they weren't your typical quiet family, doesn't mean the guy raped, mutilated and burned a human being.

As for your comments that it's a no brainer he is guilty because a judge and 12 of his peers found him guilty. Well A) this happened to him before, where he wasn't guilty as proven. And B) One of the jurors that was excused cannot believe that they came to a guilty verdict. He admitted that 7 originally voted not guilty, 3 voted guilty and 2 were on the fence. How does that then turn into 12 people voting guilty. Who changed their minds and why?

As for Brendan's case, that should have been thrown out the window straight away. And the fact that he has lost his appeal twice already is beyond belief. Especially when the private investigator was crying on the stand about his tactics, he knew full well what he had done, and still couldn't bring himself to admit it. Brendan has the mind and intellect of a 3 year old. I could quite easily make my 3 year old nephew say the exact same things Brendan did.
 
Come on vOn. The only reason you have any belief he's guilty is the prejudice of the rumors around him and his family life.

Just because they weren't your typical quiet family, doesn't mean the guy raped, mutilated and burned a human being.

As for your comments that it's a no brainer he is guilty because a judge and 12 of his peers found him guilty.

I'm not communicating this well enough - I don't know if he's guilty or not, I wasn't provided with enough clear arguments from both sides to make such judgement and to be honest - it doesn't even matter - regardless of whether he is guilty or not, what was done to him is a crime.

However it's important to understand that prior to this filtered documentary for the armchair detectives like you and me, the entire neighbourhood, public, media and nearly all the people involved in the trial at the time, including people close to Avert and at some point Dassey's defence team, all believed him/them to be guilty beyond any doubt and actively participated in digging the hole under him.

Of course as I watched the documentary the conspiracy theorist in me wanted to scream "OMG, they all wanted to frame the *****!" but the humanist in me begged "please, let this be a failure of his defence team, tell me they just couldn't communicate everything we saw across as well as the documentary was able to and that's why all of those people reached the guilty verdict".

But every time I dismiss conspiracy of silence and sway to "bad defence" corner, I remind myself that even Jodi, his fiancee, claims she was abused and scared of him and believes he murdered that photographer (and you would not believe that at all after watching the documentary). And she's not alone. Every neighbour in this close knit community had either experienced something bad or heard a first hand bad story about him. Family members claimed they were abused by him. So it is highly plausible that they all looked at each other with that "now or never" look and pressed that button to purge the hatch as hard as they could...
 
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The argument to that is there should be an presumption of innocence and the burden of proof is on the prosecution, for them to put beyond reasonable doubt that he did it.

The way to do it isn't base on his previous character (which can only go as far as credibility), and what he has done before has no bearings on the facts of this case, facts such as the way the newphew's confession was obtained and interviewed By the the police without counsel. Concentrate on the facts on the case, not what crimes he has done before. The past will come into play during sentencing, not during the trial.

By not having that presumption of innocence, he is prejudiced before the trial even begun.

To be honest, the whole case should be trial in another county with the jury from that county.
 
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But every time I dismiss conspiracy of silence and sway to "bad defence" corner, I remind myself that even Jodi, his fiancee, claims she was abused and scared of him and believes he murdered that photographer (and you would not believe that at all after watching the documentary).

This came out after the documentary, not during or recently after the case. Smells more like a payout for a news story more than truth to me. I'd take what she says with a pinch of salt.
 
Finished watching last night and I am uncertain if he did it or not. If you watch the Netflix on face value then you are 99% there to thinking it was an utter set up.

I still think the ex. Boyfriend had something to do with this. He seriously did not know if he last saw her in the day time or early evening (Here is a clue, it would have been darker at night time than day time)

No doubt there is some critial info missing that would balance the story. Taken at face value, SA would seem to be the victim of a VERY elaborate set up.
 
I've not started it, but it is next on my list. Just finished orange is the new black so starting this to watch along side prison break and homeland which I am currently watching.
 
Finished watching last night and I am uncertain if he did it or not. If you watch the Netflix on face value then you are 99% there to thinking it was an utter set up.

I still think the ex. Boyfriend had something to do with this. He seriously did not know if he last saw her in the day time or early evening (Here is a clue, it would have been darker at night time than day time)

No doubt there is some critial info missing that would balance the story. Taken at face value, SA would seem to be the victim of a VERY elaborate set up.

I finished watching a week a go and still can't get over it.

Even if the documentary was heavily Avery bias, there's still so much that should have swayed the jurors to have considerable doubt.

  • The lack of blood anywhere in the premises - Avery clearly isn't clever enough nor lacks the skills to be able to clean up a murder scene.
  • The fact a body was burned to nothing more than a shin bone and fragments, yards away from his garage. The heat needed to do this would require the "bonfire" to be enormous and would have resulted in burn damage to his property.

Before we then go on to disprove the evidence which was found:

A key in the bedroom found 3/4 days after initial searches, in broad daylight. Yet a recent photo of Halbach in front of her Rav4 with a bundle of keys attached to the keyring. Yet only 1 key found in bedroom.

All evidence (key, bullet etc.) were all found by Manitowoc Sheriff department, of which were a the time being sued by Avery. Should have never been anywhere near the scene or involved in the case.

The suspicious finding of the Rav4. Clearly directed to where it was, only there for 5 minutes but finds the car (which she had no idea what she was really looking for) in a 40 acres plot. And the police phone call earlier running a license check when clearly in front of the vehicle.

The jurors are also allegedly made up of the father of a Manitowoc County Sheriff's deputy, and another juror's wife was a Manitowoc County clerk.

The juror that got excused also revealed that 7 were of non guilty verdict. Another juror told the filmmakers of Making a Murderer that they felt intimidated into returning a guilty verdict, as they feared for their safety.
 
Just finished. A few things:

- There's one bit where one of the police officers says that the dispacter told him the car they were looking for. It turns out this is wrong - the dispatcher reads out the registration number and he calls out the car make having apparantly never seeing it before or Teresa. The guys face just looks like a "Oh ****" sort of face...
- Brendon's first lawyer... Wow.
- The car was hidden about as well as a **** in a bath. Missing woman - first place their going to look is that scrap yard. The way Steve talks I just can't see him being that stupid.
- The Ex and the flatmate were never treated as potential suspects? Avery was the neat bow so to speak.
- Brendon's statement about the stabbing and whatnot sounds like BS. He's an emotionally, socially and intelligently weak kid. DNA evidence finds nothing of him. Like someone said, unless Steve is Dexter this sounds like a kid who is saying stuff that he thinks people want to hear.
- The keys that are found on the 7th sweep with only Steve's DNA on? In plain view. Apparantly no DNA of Teresa on them? Hmmmm.
- The blood sample that had a needle like hole in it and had been opened. So his blood is out there somewhere...
- At the end Steve orders ALL of his case files so he can go through them himself. Supposedly he is spending most of his time in the Library trying to find ways to clear his name. Now to me, the fact that he's doing this makes me believe that he wouldn't be stupid enough to hide a pretty distinctive car on his property (and not using the crusher to crush it down) considering all the media attention he would inevitably get following Teresa's dissaperance.

Like the lawyer said, I hope he did it because otherwise there's still person/'s out there responsible. However, I'm sceptical. Going by what Brendan is shown to be, he'd have no idea how to dispose of a body himself unless he's a supremly intelligent psychopath just playing the role of a dumb kid.

EDIT:

- I might of overestimated Steven's intelligence.

- Heard that the cat he threw over the fire as a younger man was doused in petrol first.

- Also, I forgot about the letters from an earlier episode where he wrote some pretty horiffic things.

- Was just talking to my sister and she thinks that he did it and that bits of evidence were planted.
 
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