Making a murderer - The Avery case (Spoilers)

You still (and in fact nobody) has made any attempt to rebut how the information Brendan gave turned out to align with the crime scene, specific details that are relevant - and come from him and him only. How do you explain that?

You still (and in fact nobody) has made any attempt to rebut how the information Brendan gave turned out to align with the crime scene, specific details that are relevant - and come from him and him only. How do you explain that?


Yea, of course he did, after he got the details "wrong" a couple of times and then got it right with the help of his interrogation pals.

And the evidence is found AFTER he makes the **** up. Everything he volunteers without the help from the cops is miraculously found after the fact, all the other stuff he needed prompting because he got the story "wrong", i.e it didn't fit the narrative the prosecution was building.
 
Why do you keep insisting that if police planted evidence then the only outcome is that they must have killed her? that isn't true and I can only surmise it's a willingly ignorant statement to keep your guilty opinion and set up a straw man so you avoid addressing the many big fat elephants about the case, 99% of which is evidence that doesn't exist. I've seen so many of your replies that answer a question with a question or a statement of evidence that we know to be false like you are pulling the wool over your own eyes.

Because, if Steven didn't kill her - somebody else must have;
  • Either killed her themselves, or made arrangements for her to be killed - then moved her body to Avery's burn pit, and burnt it without anybody else noticing (highly implausible)
  • Been in possession of Steven Avery's blood - then planted it in the Rav 4 in a way that would align with how it would be left from a bleeding wound (fooling forensic scientists)
  • Been in possession of Halbach's blood and also planted it in the Rav 4 - in a way that was consistent with blood spatter from bloodied hair
  • Been in possession of Steven Avery's skin cells - then planted them on the hood latch of the Rav 4 without leaving any trace of their own DNA
  • Fired a bullet from Avery's gun (or found one fired from the same gun) then transferred Halbach's DNA onto it, then planted it
  • Planted Halbachs Rav 4, on the Avery junk yard, removing the plates and hiding them - without anybody else noticing or seeing
  • Planted Halbah's burnt personal belongings (Cellphone, PDA, Camera) in one of the burn barrels next to Avery's trailer.
  • Planted the bleach stains that were used to clean up the blood on the floor of the garage
To do all of the above things, would require;
  • The on, or off-site killing of Teresa by someone else - after she was already known to have been on the Avery property at the time she disappeared
  • Strong knowledge of forensic science
  • Strong knowledge of DNA and how to collect and transfer it
  • Probably the use of laboratory equipment (DNA transfer for the bullet)
  • Strong knowledge of police evidence collection, specifically how to plant blood and DNA (knowing how and where to place things)
  • The ability to burn a human body and their belongings right outside Avery's front door, without anybody else noticing
I put it to you, that the only people who could be capable of pulling all of this off technically, would be the police themselves, and even then it's so ridiculous it's not worth considering. It's beyond implausible to suggest that anyone else from the Avery yard, or someone off the street could collect and plant evidence so convincingly, without simultaneously implicating themselves or messing the whole thing up.

It's even more implausible that an unknown individual killed her on Avery property and the police did the rest - without leaving a trace, without anybody else seeing or noticing.

This is just staggeringly ignorant and just shows that no amount of evidence will be good enough for you and everyone who is still debating you trying to make you understand another way, to see what the rest of us see is just wasting their time on you.

Because it's not evidence. I'm getting all of my evidence from the case files and the exhibits, I'm not paying any attention to Netflix.
  • Phoney brain scans
  • Shooting bullets at bits of wood and animal bones
  • Walking around making vague suggestions that someone else killed her, or she was burnt off-site then moved (forensically impossible)
  • Re-examining bullets which have been washed, then proclaiming there's no bone fragments on them (duh)
  • Cell phone tower records which are apparently so damning, yet in her motion to free him - are removed from said motion.
There's practically no new evidence uncovered in season 2 whatsoever, that can be believed - or can at least be verified by any neutral third party, they're pushing a one-sided narrative, and they have you hooked by the looks of it.

I answered in the other thread last week or 2 weeks ago. In short the information was made to fit and if you want it to be true then it only incriminates Brendan as the killer, because only he said it as you say yourself and because only Brendan's words incriminate Steven as there is no evidence to backup Brendan's statements that Steve was involved. That the blood and crime scene were scrubbed afterwards and Teresa's clothes burned is just speculative and a theory and we should not be incarcerating people on speculation or theories.

I'll give you one piece of information that came from Brendan Dassey's statement, and leave you to explain how it could have been made up;

(Dassey's interrogation, page 776)
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...dda3ba5af/1452473032041/13May06Transcript.pdf

The police ask what happens in the garage with Halbach's body and the truck.

Brendan explains how they load her into the back of her own Jeep, Avery changes his mind at the last minute and decided to burn her, he then removes her body from the back of the Rav 4 and they carry her to the burn pit.

This explains crucially, how Halbach's blood and DNA got into the back of her own Jeep

Are you going to suggest, with a straight face - that Brendan just so happened to fill the gaps in a rather crucial piece of evidence, totally by chance whilst blatantly lying - that nobody other than Brendan and Steven could have known? That just so happened to fit perfectly with the crime scene itself?

Yea, of course he did, after he got the details "wrong" a couple of times and then got it right with the help of his interrogation pals.

And the evidence is found AFTER he makes the **** up. Everything he volunteers without the help from the cops is miraculously found after the fact, all the other stuff he needed prompting because he got the story "wrong", i.e it didn't fit the narrative the prosecution was building.

You can help @esoteric with the question above.
 
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Brendan also states that they shot her 10 times total, outside the garage. 3 of those being in the head. Only 1 bullet is found. No mention of them cleaning up the bullets. The police ask where the knife is. 3 times Brendan states the knife is in the RAV4. The Police didn't like this answer, as they didn't find the knife. So he changes his mind and says Steven returned it back to his house because he really liked that knife. They continually ask about the car key. Brendan says he put it in the cabinet drawer. Some how it gets found on like the 3rd attempt at sweeping his place. To many inconsistencies. I would love to pick apart the 3 interrogations bit by bit but the formatting is horrible to copy and paste here.
 
Brendan also states that they shot her 10 times total, outside the garage. 3 of those being in the head. Only 1 bullet is found. No mention of them cleaning up the bullets. The police ask where the knife is. 3 times Brendan states the knife is in the RAV4. The Police didn't like this answer, as they didn't find the knife. So he changes his mind and says Steven returned it back to his house because he really liked that knife. They continually ask about the car key. Brendan says he put it in the cabinet drawer. Some how it gets found on like the 3rd attempt at sweeping his place. To many inconsistencies. I would love to pick apart the 3 interrogations bit by bit but the formatting is horrible to copy and paste here.

Yeah, I mean when you go through all three statements there are a number of times when Brendan mixes things up, goes back tries to change things, when the police push him on certain aspects he gives a different answer, specifically on things like the knife, how many times she was shot etc.

However - I put that down, to him being a frightened child, who's been involved in a terrible crime - not totally of his own making, but involved nonetheless. With somebody who's alleged to have sexually abused him, who he's terrified of (this is apparent in many of his statements and in the conversations between himself and his mother) Let's face it - it's not exactly unique for killers to struggle to come to terms with what they've done, when faced with law enforcement - he's under pressure, frightened, upset and probably battling a level of stress that nobody can really understand.

The problem is, the inconsistencies and backtracking you refer to (that we agree are present) don't prove wrong the very valid information he gives, information that he volunteers on his own, without being fed, that only himself or the killer could know - that matches the crime scene, for example; can you answer the question I asked, at the bottom of post #235?

Screech is Ken Kratz. Has to be.

No personal insults! ;)
 
Yeah, I mean when you go through all three statements there are a number of times when Brendan mixes things up, goes back tries to change things, when the police push him on certain aspects he gives a different answer, specifically on things like the knife, how many times she was shot etc.

However - I put that down, to him being a frightened child, who's been involved in a terrible crime - not totally of his own making, but involved nonetheless. With somebody who's alleged to have sexually abused him, who he's terrified of (this is apparent in many of his statements and in the conversations between himself and his mother) Let's face it - it's not exactly unique for killers to struggle to come to terms with what they've done, when faced with law enforcement - he's under pressure, frightened, upset and probably battling a level of stress that nobody can really understand.

The problem is, the inconsistencies and backtracking you refer to (that we agree are present) don't prove wrong the very valid information he gives, information that he volunteers on his own, without being fed, that only himself or the killer could know - that matches the crime scene, for example; can you answer the question I asked, at the bottom of post #235?



No personal insults! ;)

What you need to understand is i'm not saying they are innocent. I'm saying I don't fully believe things happened the way the Police/Prosecution say it happens. I'm not convinced Steve Avery is guilty. My gut is looking towards Bobby Dassey and Scott T. Maybe your right. Brendan knows some vague details because he was actually involved. He's scared. You might be right but I think there is a greater chance he is scared of Bobby and Scott and would much rather pin Steven for the murders than go against his brother/step dad.

What about the license plates. In his statement that you want to believe. He says Steven brought them back to the trailer. Yet they are found on the salvage yard in suspicious circumstances. 2 days after 200 police and volunteers sweeped through the salvage yard looking for Teresa / her clothes and the License plates.

The Cadaver Dog immediately go towards an area out with the Avery estate. In fact the location is originally marked "potential burial site" It's the first place the cadaver dogs go and they circle back to that area after circling the quarry.
 
Quite possibly because it didn’t happen, you were talking before about two text messages and them not being mentioned in court, that is what I was referring to as muddled.


It did happen as he saved the texts to Scot Tadych asking him to get the lawyer to contact him.
And the guy has signed an affidavit to the fact.
 
Well you've got a very difficult job to do; You need to explain how Halbach's DNA found it's way onto the bullet.


They are going to test the bullet to see what is the stuff covering it. Her lip balm?
And she wrote in her diary that day in her car(she had a phone call for a appointment while she was driving) . How did her BF get the diary?
 
What you need to understand is i'm not saying they are innocent. I'm saying I don't fully believe things happened the way the Police/Prosecution say it happens. I'm not convinced Steve Avery is guilty. My gut is looking towards Bobby Dassey and Scott T. Maybe your right. Brendan knows some vague details because he was actually involved. He's scared. You might be right but I think there is a greater chance he is scared of Bobby and Scott and would much rather pin Steven for the murders than go against his brother/step dad.

The closest we could get to agreeing, would be that a whole bunch of other members of the Avery family were involved, possibly involving Bobby and Scott, however in my mind - Steven Avery must be involved, because her body was burned whole, right outside his trailer. That's very very difficult indeed to explain away, because it's been scientifically proven false - that her body was burned elsewhere, then the remains transported there.

Whether Brendan just wanted to put Steven away because he didn't like him, or was scared of him - and didn't mention anyone else, we'll never know. The fact that nobody else's DNA evidence was found doesn't help that theory, so I guess it's just speculation :)

They are going to test the bullet to see what is the stuff covering it. Her lip balm?
And she wrote in her diary that day in her car(she had a phone call for a appointment while she was driving) . How did her BF get the diary?


I don't really understand what you're saying, or where you're getting your information from?

I'll just go ahead and repeat what I already asked; What's your best explanation as to how Halbachs DNA got onto the bullet?
 
in my mind - Steven Avery must be involved, because her body was burned whole, right outside his trailer. That's very very difficult indeed to explain away, because it's been scientifically proven false - that her body was burned elsewhere, then the remains transported there.

I'm not suggesting this isn't true, but please can you point me to the source for this?

Because part of Zellner's case is based on the body being burned somewhere else. I know you don't subscribe to anything mentioned in the Netflix show, but if it's been proven that the body 100% was burned in the burn pit, it begs the question why Zellner is pursuing this angle…
 
I don't really understand what you're saying, or where you're getting your information from?

I'll just go ahead and repeat what I already asked; What's your best explanation as to how Halbachs DNA got onto the bullet?

I'll field this one, and I haven't even seen all of season 2...

She wrote in her diary the day she went missing, and never went home after leaving Averys property, so, given she never went home, how did her ex-bf get her diary from her house, as it was in the car with her at Averys....

The DNA wasn't consistent with the bullet going through her head, and there was "something" else on the bullet..
Plus, low caliber rounds don't tend to pass through much at all, yet we're meant to believe that this bullet passed through her head, yet, as far as I have seen, where is her skull showing she was shot in the head?
 
I'm not suggesting this isn't true, but please can you point me to the source for this?

Because part of Zellner's case is based on the body being burned somewhere else. I know you don't subscribe to anything mentioned in the Netflix show, but if it's been proven that the body 100% was burned in the burn pit, it begs the question why Zellner is pursuing this angle…

I'm not sure we could ever say it was 100%, however the bones were entwined and mixed up with the steel belting from the tires, implying that the body was burned along with the tires, however under cross-examination, the forensic scientist does not believe the bones had been moved from another site, to Avery's burn pit. Mostly because the bones themselves would have exhibited signs of being moved - as she explains in her testimony;

(Page 33, Dr Eisenberg )
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...67/Jury-Trial-Transcript-Day-14-2007Mar01.pdf

This also aligns with Brendan's confession, where he explains how they used tires to help burn the body - again, information from the confession that lines up with how the remains were found.

What's interesting from her testimony, is that they don't just find big bones in the burn pit and barrel - they find tiny pieces of delicate remains, ash and charred flesh - which would imply that if she was burned at a different location - whoever transported her bones, must have done so with an insane element of detail - because it included all of the tiny complex bones and bits of skeleton, including things like teeth.

I'll field this one, and I haven't even seen all of season 2...

She wrote in her diary the day she went missing, and never went home after leaving Averys property, so, given she never went home, how did her ex-bf get her diary from her house, as it was in the car with her at Averys....

It's a bit weird to reply to a question, by asking a different question - I am genuinely curious to know peoples opinions on how Halbach's DNA got onto the bullet - I think it's a fair question.

I don't know anything about the Journal, I can't find it anywhere in the case file, other than a reference to it being collected by the Sheriff, can you elaborate?
 
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It did happen as he saved the texts to Scot Tadych asking him to get the lawyer to contact him.
And the guy has signed an affidavit to the fact.

You're getting muddled again - the texts happened, though they happened after the court case/after season 1 had aired. We don't know that the encounter with the cop happened.
 
I strongly suspect Bobby Dassey had something to do with it. Just look at what they found on his computer! Why was that information kept back from the trial??
 
I strongly suspect Bobby Dassey had something to do with it. Just look at what they found on his computer! Why was that information kept back from the trial??

Because the prosecution labelled it and presented it (very late in the day) in a way that led the defence to agree it wasn't worth admitting as evidence. The defence were were understaffed (or stupid) and didn't take a look at it themselves. So it didn't make it to trial. Slippery from the prosecution.
 
In terms of how Teresa's DNA got on the bullet.

It's been shown that those calibre bullets stand very little chance of doing a through and through on a human skull (with brain matter to go through). If it did there would be many traces of calcium and phosphate, it didn't. It was shown even after bullets were washed that the bone fragments remained.

In terms of how the DNA got on it if not through the act of murder... Who knows, it's hard to explain without going down the route of evidence planting/tampering.

My thoughts? I don't think she was shot and the bullet has been made to fit a narrative.
 
It's a bit weird to reply to a question, by asking a different question - I am genuinely curious to know peoples opinions on how Halbach's DNA got onto the bullet - I think it's a fair question.

The bullet was one of the most damning pieces of evidence which the prosecution had. As you've said, they confirmed that the bullet they're saying killed Teresa was fired from Stevens gun and has Teresa's DNA on.

The questions Zellner poses however are;

1. Why is there no sign of any bone fragments on the bullet?
2. How has the bullet managed to pass through two sections of bone, and the brain itself, when it's only a small calibre round?
3. Why was the bullet covered in a waxy like substances?

The theory Zellner has come up with is that the bullet was literally picked up from the garage floor, Teresa's chapstick was used on it which accounts for the waxy substances and her DNA being on the bullet. It also explains why there's no evidence of bone being on the bullet, given that it never was fired at Teresa Halbach.
 
And Bobby Dassey originally stated he saw Halbach leave the Avery site, but changed his tune after speaking to that Fassbender guy. Could he have been blackmailed with the computer findings?
 
In terms of how Teresa's DNA got on the bullet.

It's been shown that those calibre bullets stand very little chance of doing a through and through on a human skull (with brain matter to go through). If it did there would be many traces of calcium and phosphate, it didn't. It was shown even after bullets were washed that the bone fragments remained.

Says who? Zellner or forensic science? What Zellner says should be taken with a pinch of salt, because nothing she's doing is being independently verified, or checked for accuracy - we have to take her word for everything - unlike court testimony, where everything is examined and cross examined.

I'm no forensic scientist, but according to some of the experimentation I've read - it's actually quite rare to find any biological material on a bullet at all, let alone DNA, however I'd certainly give way to the opinion of an actual forensic scientist who told me I was incorrect there.

In terms of how the DNA got on it if not through the act of murder... Who knows, it's hard to explain without going down the route of evidence planting/tampering.

My thoughts? I don't think she was shot and the bullet has been made to fit a narrative.

This is the problem that we can both agree on, any alternative theory that explains how the DNA got onto the bullet - other than it passing through Halbach's body - requires a gigantic leap into conspiracy theory land.

If you don't think she was shot - how do you explain the evidence presented in court, by the forensic anthropologist showing the skull fragments which had damage consistent with that of a gunshot to the head?

The bullet was one of the most damning pieces of evidence which the prosecution had. As you've said, they confirmed that the bullet they're saying killed Teresa was fired from Stevens gun and has Teresa's DNA on.

The questions Zellner poses however are;

1. Why is there no sign of any bone fragments on the bullet?
2. How has the bullet managed to pass through two sections of bone, and the brain itself, when it's only a small calibre round?
3. Why was the bullet covered in a waxy like substances?

The theory Zellner has come up with is that the bullet was literally picked up from the garage floor, Teresa's chapstick was used on it which accounts for the waxy substances and her DNA being on the bullet. It also explains why there's no evidence of bone being on the bullet, given that it never was fired at Teresa Halbach.

Who has independently verified, tested and agreed that Halbach's chapstick has been used on the bullet? Because until it is verified it can't be considered as evidence - I could run a TV show and make anything I like up to make a name for myself, by using cargo-cult pseudoscience, phoney brain scans and shooting guns at animal bones.

Apply Occam's razor to the two competing theories;

Steven Avery shot Halbach in the head with his rifle (as per Brendan's confession) also backed up by the forensic evidence showing a gunshot wound to Halbach's skull, along with her DNA on the bullet, they found in the garage at the alleged murder site, they then moved her body to the burn pit and disposed of it.

OR

An unknown third party (almost certainly colluding with the police) shot Teresa in the head (that's undisputed because of forensic evidence) then they either found a bullet fired from Avery's gun, or used his gun to fire one, planted her DNA on it via some means (her chapstick if you like) this unknown third party then burns the body in Avery's burn pit, - without him knowing, then proceeds to plant all the other evidence, including Avery's blood, the Rav 4 and all the other things (because simply putting Halbach's DNA on the bullet isn't enough, if you're going to frame one piece of evidence - it logically follows that all the evidence was framed) All of this, without any actual evidence that anything was planted.

Which is the most likely and reasonable explanation - if you were a Jury - which one would you pick?
 
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