Malaysia Grand Prix 2012, Kuala Lumpur - Race 2/20

FrankJH said:
Reminds me of all the huge financial crimes that have hit the press in the last few years. One of the Nick Leeson style ones knew he was doing wrong , so shopped himself (and the company) and got a lesser jail sentence ...... - however good a broker they are, the size of the money that brought the companies down , MUST have gone through the board /or directors etc
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The size of some of the financial crimes which have occurred begs belief. There was guy who made what Nick Leeson did, look like chicken feed. Crimes like that can bring an entire institution down.

Leeson, estimated loss: US$1.4bn
Bernard Madoff, estimated Loss: US$65 billion
R. Allen Stanford, estimated Loss: US$8 billion
Jerome Kerviel, Estimated Losses: US$8 billion

I don't know how these guy can sleep at night, when they know that they are responsible for these sorts of losses/crimes.
 
So let me get this straight, according to sunama, when Ron Dennis found out about the incriminating emails what he should have done is kept his mouth shut and hope that nobody else who knew said anything, including the driver he had fallen out with who had already threatened to go to the FIA?

Riiiiiiiight :rolleyes:

Imagine how it would have looked if Alonso had gone to the FIA, not only with the evidence, but also with proof that Ron now knew! McLaren would have been banned from F1 completely.

Ron was between a rock and a hard place, and chose to fall on his sword. You may see that as him "shopping" the team into the authorities, I see it as him taking the best route possible for the survival of the team. Keeping his mouth shut would have then made him no better than Flavio or Prat.
 
He knew what had happened, but denied it. That's what I was getting at.

Ron didn't know about the emails initially, and then when he did, he came clean.

And I thought it was Flavs lifetime ban that he appealed? Renault were still guilty of race fixing.

Edit: yep, it was the ban that was overturned on appeal based on the fact the FIA do not have the authority to ban 3rd parties who do not require a licence to compete. Flavio and Prat were still guilty of race fixing, that verdict wasn't changed, just the penalties for it revoked and compensation for the damage of that verdict paid.
 
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Skeeter said:
So let me get this straight, according to sunama, when Ron Dennis found out about the incriminating emails what he should have done is kept his mouth shut and hope that nobody else who knew said anything, including the driver he had fallen out with who had already threatened to go to the FIA?

Riiiiiiiight :rolleyes:

Imagine how it would have looked if Alonso had gone to the FIA, not only with the evidence, but also with proof that Ron now knew! McLaren would have been banned from F1 completely.
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Use your head.

Alonso was attempting to win a title.
He would have to be insane to go and shop his team.
Shopping his team would've meant his title bid and also his career in F1 would've been jeopardized. Remember, no one wants hire a snitch. Ask Piquet Jr if you want proof.

Shopping a team is highly frowned upon.
I do not recall ever seeing an employee of an F1 team shop their own team, with the exception of Ron Dennis. Perhaps someone can go back int he annuls of F1 history and find an example other than Ron Dennis?

Nelson Piquet wasn't technically with Renault, after he was sacked and shopped Renault. Ron Dennis stands alone in this.

What Ron Dennis should've done is put Alonso in his place and behaved like the older/bigger man. Alonso would've shut up, like a dutiful employee.

I am a manager in the company I work for and if an employee ever said, "I'm gonna tell the teacher", I would sit him down and explain why this would be a very bad idea. I would also calm him down and steer him away from this chain of thought. I would also not get to a stage where I am not speaking with an employee. As a manager it is my job to make sure things run smoothly. Unless I had a wish to be fired, the last thing I would do is shop my own company.

An even better manager (or rather boss), would have rounded all the employees up, had a huge meeting and explained that what happened in the Summer (ie, when McLaren were first investigated and found not guilty), was a matter which needed to be put to bed and finished with. And that if any employee were caught discussing this in public (there would be disciplinary repercussions).

I'd have drummed it into all employees (including Alonso) that the matter was now closed.

In Hungary if Alonso made that threat, there would be hell to pay, if he said it what he said, to me, HOWEVER, it would all be done in private, behind closed doors. I'm confident that he would've fallen into line, unless he wanted to be sidelined (which I doubt any driver leading the WDC would want).

Shopping his own team to the FIA was Ron Dennis's last resort, not his first.

Think about how many secrets people like Brawn, Horner and MSc have about their own teams. The rules they have broken and currently breaking. Do you ever hear of these guys shopping their respective teams? Never.
 
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Lol, I could have put money on sunama using the word 'snitch'.

This isn't an episode of The Sopranos. Ron 'The Boss' Dennis aint gonna be able to silence Fred 'Non Stick' Alonso by setting Tony and the boys on him to teach him whos boss and stop him snitchin' to the Fuzz.

Alonso got imunity in Spygate in turn for giving evidence, as did the other drivers, and Piquet got imunity in crashgate for the same thing. If he had gone to the FIA to grass on his boss he would have got the same. Alonsos career was not in jeapardy, Rons and McLarens reputation was. Suggesting Ron would have been able to silence everyone is just naive At most he would have been able to silence Alonso for as long as he stayed at McLaren, which by that point was already looking like no further than the end of 2007. Ron had no choice, so took the least damaging option available.

If you think that's wrong and he should have just lied and somehow silenced everyone forever, then go ahead. Your wrong, but go ahead.
 
Skeeter said:
He knew what had happened, but denied it. That's what I was getting at.

Ron didn't know about the emails initially, and then when he did, he came clean.

And I thought it was Flavs lifetime ban that he appealed? Renault were still guilty of race fixing.

Edit: yep, it was the ban that was overturned on appeal based on the fact the FIA do not have the authority to ban 3rd parties who do not require a licence to compete. Flavio and Prat were still guilty of race fixing, that verdict wasn't changed, just the penalties for it revoked and compensation for the damage of that verdict paid.
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He was guilty in the eyes of the FIA, not a proper court. It was a proper court that over turned his ban. Flavio has always claimed he was innocent.

Briatore later said he was "distraught" by FIA's action, and sued the FIA in French courts in order to clear his name.[29] On January 5, 2010, the Tribunal de Grande Instance overturned the ban, and granted him €15,000 in compensation.
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He sued to "clear his name", the ban was overturned. We'd probably have to read the judges ratio decidendi to find out what his thoughts were. The quote I pulled out is ambiguous. He certainly got the ban overturned, it was never proven in a legal court that he did anything wrong.
 
http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/6063.html

The verdict was not annulled, just deemed irregular, and the penalties applied to Flavio and Prat removed on the grounds that the FIA had no powers to impliment a ban to them.

Renault remained guilty of race fixing and the 2 year suspended ban against the team remained. Flavio and Prat were still considered guilty by the FIA of involvement in it, but with the penalties removed. The reason why the bans were overturned were because the FIA chose to punish them in a way that they had no rights to, not because they were considered innocent.

Flavio, Prat, ING Renault F1 and Piquet remain guilty of race fixing as ruled by the WMSC and the FIA.
 
I was wondering how the heck we keep going over the same F1 history time and again. Really would like some mods to come here and tailor the discussion so its at least vaguely relevant to the race in the title - anything else really should be in the ALREADY provided off-topic thread...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
But the conversarions often come off the back of discussions in the race threads. This convo could probubly be moved to the off topic thread though.

But we all know the real blame here lies with Bernie and his dam 3 week breaks! :D
 
sunama said:
The size of some of the financial crimes which have occurred begs belief. There was guy who made what Nick Leeson did, look like chicken feed. Crimes like that can bring an entire institution down.

Leeson, estimated loss: US$1.4bn
Bernard Madoff, estimated Loss: US$65 billion
R. Allen Stanford, estimated Loss: US$8 billion
Jerome Kerviel, Estimated Losses: US$8 billion

I don't know how these guy can sleep at night, when they know that they are responsible for these sorts of losses/crimes.
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Remember Leeson was an employee - Madoff for one was the head of a family organization (I have to admit Im not sure of the other two).

Also 10 - 20 years between the 1st and 2nd which accounts for some of the "value" difference imo

anywayyyyyyyyyy getting off topic now lol :)

englishpremier said:
You are aware that Flavio hasn't been proven to have done anything wrong. In fact quite the contrary, he sued the FIA in a bid to clear his name, and won the case.
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laughs at the possibility that Flav was the innocent one - just because it cant be proven has no relation at all as to whether he is guilty or not.

sunama said:
Shopping his own team to the FIA was Ron Dennis's last resort, not his first.

Think about how many secrets people like Brawn, Horner and MSc have about their own teams. The rules they have broken and currently breaking. Do you ever hear of these guys shopping their respective teams? Never.
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Do we know for FACT it wasnt Ron's last resort? Or maybe it just makes Ron more honest than you are (for right or wrong lol) :D
 
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FrankJH said:
Remember Leeson was an employee - Madoff for one was the head of a family organization (I have to admit Im not sure of the other two).
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Dude, no matter who owned the company and for how long it went on, to screw people or a company out of so much money is big deal. Companies can go bust and people (other than the culprits involved in the shenanigans) can lose their jobs. So the consequences are far reaching.

FrankJH said:
laughs at the possibility that Flav was the innocent one - just because it cant be proven has no relation at all as to whether he is guilty or not.
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I think we all know what the real deal was here. Flavio is just a very slippery character to nail down. I've also checked his history and it seems that he is no stranger to having to defend himself against allegations in Court.

He is certainly a risk taker.

FrankJH said:
Do we know for FACT it wasnt Ron's last resort? Or maybe it just makes Ron more honest than you are (for right or wrong lol) :D
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If Dennis really was honest, then he would've come clean during the initial investigation. Lets not forget that McLaren were initially investigated over cheating. However, they "got off" due to lack of evidence. Then when Dennis shopped his team, the FIA re-investigated the matter and found them guilty. My memory is hazy on this, but I believe it was the first investigation which punished Coughlan. And then 2nd investigation which punished McLaren.

Another question is: did Dennis know what was going on? Considering that Dennis is an old-hat in F1. He knows what goes on. I'm sure he has been involved in many spying projects (all F1 teams have and are...this is not a big deal). My belief is that he was aware of the Ferrari data being passed around. I mean, if a new boy called Alonso knew about the data, how the hell did Dennis not know?
 
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