Malaysia Grand Prix 2012, Kuala Lumpur - Race 2/20

2008:
Cheated his way to the Singapore win and then stood by as Piquet Jnr (who had willingly fallen on his own sword in order for this to happen) was hung out to dry by Flav

We'll never know the absolute truth on this, but it is believed that Piquet had the idea and Flav and Symonds went along with it. Apparently Alonso was not aware of the idea which had been concocted.

You make it sound like Piquet was some form of saint. He wasn't. He was the guy who was instrumental in cheating and allegedly came up with the idea. Without Piquet, there would be no incident or cheating. Nobody put a gun to his head to do what he did and I'm bemused you would blame Alonso for what happened. Perhaps you know something we don't...if so, do tell.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...-Renault-over-Nelson-Piquet-Junior-crash.html
 
The rest would be hard to choose. Vettel has pure speed, but his attitude when losing reminds me of Hamilton and it just doesn't help. Button just gets on with it. Fair enough everyone moans when its not going right, but Button has a "style" about him that makes him realistic, not negative about a bad situation. Vettel and Hamilton just start crying, and lately Hamilton seems "broken".

I think it comes down to simply Button and Alonso having more experience of losing and being in terrible cars. Vettel and especially Hamilton had a far quicker push to the front. They are just not as used to being in woeful equipment as the other older drivers.

Button at the start of 09 was lucky to even have a driver after BAR/Honda shovelling **** at him for all but one season. I imagine after what happened in 09 and not believeing his luck he's far less likely to whinge about anything.

Vettel only drove one full season for torro rosso before being promoted to red bull who mounted a challenge for the title. Except for last year Hamilton has contested the title every year for a large portion of the season.

I think the difference in attitudes comes down to purely not being used to losing or having no chance to win regularly yet. They will I'm sure be similar in attitude to button and Alonso when they get older.
 
2006:
Drove very well for the most part against a back on form Schumacher. Acted like a child when he was demoted at Monza for impeding Massa's lap; witness the "F1 as a sport is dead to me" line.
f1 as a sport was dead when msc overtook a napping alonso at monsa only to be told the green lights didnt actually mean race :rolleyes:

to bernie f1 is just a "show" like the wwf was
 
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Even at Brawn once the others caught up a bit Jenson was lost on saturdays and even allowed Rubens to come back at him.

What the **** are you talking about - JB completely slaughtered Rubens (like the majority of the grid) before the 8th race before Brawn's cash ran out and developement stopped.

Even in those races later in the year where he has a bad race, JB was right with Rubens, and majority of the time on Sundays he completely slaughtered him in timings

OR could it be that he makes them look 2nd best?
Massa was driving alongside MSc (the greatest driver of all time) and then with Kimi (WDC, who many rate as a very good driver). During this time while not considered great, Massa was always thought as a decent driver.

Enter Alonso in Ferrari. Massa falls apart.

IMO, it isnt that Massa is bad. It's just a case that Alonso is really "that" good and is making Massa look bad.

If you look at 2009 (I think it was): Alonso scored 26 points. The other car scored 0 points.

What Alonso is doing to his team-mates is precisely what MSc did to his team-mate. There is no difference.

That could just as easily be down to Massa's accident in Hungary as much as Alonso's arrival.

He may not be as good now, but Massa was always considered distinctly average against MSc , of course this worked for Ferrari - they had the best driver on the grid most likely to win majority of races, they didnt really care what Massa waa doing (until one of the rare occasions that MSc had to retire etc.)

Would be very intererested to seee how many WCC Ferrari would have won in the same MSc years if the points had been how they are now done instead of the 10, 6, 4 etc - from my recollections Massa was routinely beaten by other teams as well.
 
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2007:
Waltzed into a new team claiming that he instantly brought '6 tenths' of speed improvement with him. Expected de facto numero uno treatment from the team and couldn't handle it when a rookie began to challenge him. Liked it even less when the team refused to force Hamilton to pull rank and so took matters into his own hands threatening to 'run and tell teacher' about the Spygate affair.

That was all started by Hamilton completely disregarding his team and their orders/rules in qualifying. Alonso had every right to be annoyed and the team should have handled the 'maverick' Hamilton better.


I believe that Alonso is actually a better driver now than when he won his titles. His performances in the Renault in 2008 and 09 were outstanding, as has been his performance at Ferrari.
 
That was all started by Hamilton completely disregarding his team and their orders/rules in qualifying. Alonso had every right to be annoyed and the team should have handled the 'maverick' Hamilton better.

I do agree that McLaren should've managed Alonso better (don't forget that he himself was very young (only 1 year old than Hamilton?)), but Alonso also has to take part of the blame. He learnt his lesson though and when he arrived at Ferrari, the very first thing he did was get the entire team to rally behind his cause.

Ron Dennis in 2007, as a boss, was woeful and bizarrely (considering his experience) had no idea how to manage 2 young drivers. And to "shop" his own team is inexcusable [in many companies, he would've been asked to resign after that. If I was running a company, and an employee shopped my company, resulting in a US$100M fine, that guy would be given a good severance package and asked never to return. How he is still at McLaren is beyond me.]
 
Well he owns or owned a lot of shares in McLaren, so that probably helped

At the time he owned only 15% of the race team, IIRC.

And he did get removed from the race team after it all too. I know he hid it under the excuse that he wanted to concentrate on the road car projects, but I think that was just a convenient excuse.
 
What the **** are you talking about - JB completely slaughtered Rubens (like the majority of the grid) before the 8th race before Brawn's cash ran out and developement stopped.

Even in those races later in the year where he has a bad race, JB was right with Rubens, and majority of the time on Sundays he completely slaughtered him in timings.

Yeah it must have been a mistake in the points totalling that allowed Rubens to still be in with a shout of the championship until the near death. His failure to perform on saturdays is what stopped him wrapping the title up earlier and also allowed Vettel to come back at him.

Are you seriously suggesting that getting outqualified by Rubens 9 times out of the last 10 races didn't allow rubens and vettel to come back at him. It hurt him badly and this was a car Rubens managed pole at Brazil and sometimes Rubens was multiple places ahead of him on the grid.

GB 2nd to JB's 6th
SPA 4 to JBs 14th
Singapore 5th to JBs 12th
Brazil Pole to JB's 14th

Hungary is the only track from the last 10 Jenson outqualified Rubens. Yes his race pace was mostly almost as good but you are giving yourself too hard a job against the better drivers with the standard of his qualifying.
 
Sunama, in your analogy of you owning a firm and an employee shopping the company, is it you as the owner or the employee who actually did the shopping that gets the boot?

Because in the McLaren situation the 'employee' has got off scot free. I'm fairly sure that's not how it would work in most companies.

But either way, it was 5 years ago (wow, was it really that long ago!), so its all by the by now. Dam these 3 week gaps leaving us with little relevant to talk about! :D

Dannyjo and Frank, have either of you read Buttons book about the 2009 season? It gives a good insight into just how badly he felt he was performing as the year went on. He did a good job in the press of trying to convince everyone he was calm, but the book shows that he spent most Saturday night's for the second half of the season trying to piece back together any sort of chance for points. He's very honest about how his lack of qualifying performance nearly cost him the title.
 
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Not just an employee that got off scot free, Pedro wasn't even a full driver. His actions cost the Mclaren group millions and they never gave him the boot.

That suggests to me this is went far far deeper and more involved than us mere fans will ever know. To me Dennis had no choice when Alonso threatened to tell.
 
Yep, I agree. All the information we have is the juicy bits the press felt they could mould into attention grabbing headlines. All the boring details (I.e. the truth) is still buried.

We will have to wait until someone leaves under a cloud (Piquet style) before the full details start to come out.
 
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Sunama, in your analogy of you owning a firm and an employee shopping the company, is it you as the owner or the employee who actually did the shopping that gets the boot?

Because in the McLaren situation the 'employee' has got off scot free. I'm fairly sure that's not how it would work in most companies.

At the end of the day, the boss of the company (Dennis), is an employee, just like any other employee. Whichever employee, (be it the boss or the guy who works part-time, 5hrs/week), does the "shopping" and costs the company US$100M, is the guy who gets the boot. In fact, employees who cost their company far less would probably get fired. $US100M is far too much money to allow any employee to continue working at the company.

If Dennis did own 15% of the company, this would explain why he kept his job.

I'll tell you what Skeeter. Try doing something in your place of work, which ends up costing them US$100M. This might be calling the council and informing them that your company is not following a particular procedure. Lets see how long you last in that job. ;)
 
I think you are confusing being a whistle blower with being the guy committing the crime.

If the head of a company is given the choice of cooperating with the authorities by coming forward, or letting someone lower down the chain raise the alarm, they will likely go for option a. Rons choice was to admit the truth, or be exposed as a liar.

This is very different to me phoning the council and telling them my company is breaking some rules, its like the head of my company telling the council they have found out they are breaking the rules and want to work with then towards getting them resolved. The boss coming forward is the lesser of 2 evils. Had Ron not come forward and instead one of the lower down employees plonked a pile of incriminating evidence on Max's desk, I doubt McLaren would even still be in F1.
 
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Yeah it must have been a mistake in the points totalling that allowed Rubens to still be in with a shout of the championship until the near death. His failure to perform on saturdays is what stopped him wrapping the title up earlier and also allowed Vettel to come back at him.

Are you seriously suggesting that getting outqualified by Rubens 9 times out of the last 10 races didn't allow rubens and vettel to come back at him. It hurt him badly and this was a car Rubens managed pole at Brazil and sometimes Rubens was multiple places ahead of him on the grid.

GB 2nd to JB's 6th
SPA 4 to JBs 14th
Singapore 5th to JBs 12th
Brazil Pole to JB's 14th

Hungary is the only track from the last 10 Jenson outqualified Rubens. Yes his race pace was mostly almost as good but you are giving yourself too hard a job against the better drivers with the standard of his qualifying.

The races are where the points count not qualifying - JB slughtered Rubens on Sunday for majority of the year in performance terms

The only reason Vettel came into it was because there was no development on the Brawn because of lackof $$$

Anyway this is pretty irrelevant consdering JB's times compared to LH in quali - although more quali's thoughout the year wll indicate how well he is doing (or not ) in this respect.

If any driver gets massively outqualified by a team mate, but matches/ beats them in the race - given when the points are handed out I know which I would prefer to be every single time. Its impossible to tell if car had been set up differently to improve quali, how much better/worse it would have done the next day, so the ratio has to be taken as a whole .

Dannyjo and Frank, have either of you read Buttons book about the 2009 season? It gives a good insight into just how badly he felt he was performing as the year went on. He did a good job in the press of trying to convince everyone he was calm, but the book shows that he spent most Saturday night's for the second half of the season trying to piece back together any sort of chance for points. He's very honest about how his lack of qualifying performance nearly cost him the title.

While some of it was down to performing badly - it was also due to lack of finance /developement in the team. Due to his charachter , of course he is going to say this (probably more so because it turned out ok in the end), nothing he could do at all about the team finances so that was completely out of his hands.

Without knowing every detail - its impossible to know what he gave up in quali to do better in the race (because by this stage in the season, a number of cars had caught up in race pace, so he couldnt do a Vettel and manage from the front without the outright pace being there as it had been for races 1 - 7)


I think you are confusing being a whistle blower with being the guy committing the crime.

If the head of a company is given the choice of cooperating with the authorities by coming forward, or letting someone lower down the chain raise the alarm, they will likely go for option a. Rons choice was to admit the truth, or be exposed as a liar.

This is very different to me phoning the council and telling them my company is breaking some rules, its like the head of my company telling the council they have found out they are breaking the rules and want to work with then towards getting them resolved. The boss coming forward is the lesser of 2 evils. Had Ron not come forward and instead one of the lower down employees plonked a pile of incriminating evidence on Max's desk, I doubt McLaren would even still be in F1.

Reminds me of all the huge financial crimes that have hit the press in the last few years. One of the Nick Leeson style ones knew he was doing wrong , so shopped himself (and the company) and got a lesser jail sentence ...... - however good a broker they are, the size of the money that brought the companies down , MUST have gone through the board /or directors etc
 
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Dannyjo and Frank, have either of you read Buttons book about the 2009 season? It gives a good insight into just how badly he felt he was performing as the year went on. He did a good job in the press of trying to convince everyone he was calm, but the book shows that he spent most Saturday night's for the second half of the season trying to piece back together any sort of chance for points. He's very honest about how his lack of qualifying performance nearly cost him the title.

To be honest I didn't even know there had been a book. I will have to look for that, something to read on holiday this year :)

The only reason Vettel came into it was because there was no development on the Brawn because of lackof $$$

Vettel should have taken the title in 2009. At least two of JB's 7 wins should have gone to Vettel. Luckily Vettel wasn't as consistent then or the performance in the 2nd half of the season would have hurt him to the tune of a title.

As I said at the time though, all recent world champions have made their first title look harder than it should have. The pressure must be immense to finally realise a dream.
 
I think you are confusing being a whistle blower with being the guy committing the crime.

US$100M is a heck of a lot of money.
Whether you like it or not Dennis was the guy who made the phone call.

Sure, somebody "might have" shopped the team at a later date...but it was Dennis who actually made the phone call (in a fit of rage) during the Hungary GP.

The guy behaved like a spoiled bratt and at his age, he should've known better. Don't get me wrong, during that weekend Hamilton and Alonso also behaved like spoiled bratts, but Dennis is the boss. He is the manager. It is up to him to calm the situation down and not add fuel to the situation. If he can't do this, then there is no point in him being there. They may as well have raced the weekend, without management. A manager/boss is supposed to improve things, not make them worse.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter now...its all done and dusted.
 
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