Malaysia Grand Prix 2012, Kuala Lumpur - Race 2/20

[sunama]

Opinions will vary and I can only give you my opinion.
Some people, for example, may feel that Rosberg is the best driver in the World...its just an opinion.

In 2005, he, together with Renault, finally ended Ferraris 5 year domination and won the WDC.

In 2006, when MSc had a decent car, Alonso still managed to resist, arguably the best driver of all time, who was still pretty damn good in 2006. He won the title again.
He was a double World champ at a very young age, which shows raw ability and talent. By winning 2 titles, it shows there is consistency and unlike people like D.Hill or Kimi, he was able to repeat his performance.

In 2007, he moved to McLaren. The car was pretty good. Possibly the best.
After he took the lead in the title chase, he was constantly being undermined and had little support (perhaps this was of his own doing). There were stages where he was not on speaking terms with management. I believe this was unprecedented. Despite the constant possibility that he was at any time, about to be fired and was perhaps going to have his WDC challenge thwarted by his own team, he kept the pressure on and still managed to finish 1 point away from the top of the title race. Had he not been demoted in qualifying, at Hungary, he would almost certainly have scored some extra points and won the title.

In 2008, he then moved to Renault who had a bad car. He still won 2 races. 1 of those races was tainted by what Piquet did. But the other race was downright brilliant.

In 2009, the car was a disaster. He still managed to get 26 points, while the drivers in the other car scored a grand total of 0 points.

In 2010, he moved to Ferrari in what was the 3rd best car, yet he was still able to mount a challenge on Vettel and almost beat him in the title race. This is unheard of. For the 3rd best car to win a title race ... this shouldn't happen. But it almost did. At the end of the season, the team principals were all polled. They were asked who the best driver in 2010 was. Alonso finished top. That year, the current F1 drivers were all polled. They were asked who the best driver currently in F1 is. Alonso finished top.

In 2011, the Ferrari wasn't that great. The whole team struggled. He scored 257 pts vs Massa's 118. Now bear in mind that Massa isn't particularly bad and when a driver gets beaten by this sort of margin, you know that the driver who scored the big points is something special. Alonso himself, has gone on record stating that in terms of his own ability, 2011, was his best season.

In 2012, the Ferrari is a complete dog. Perhaps the worst car they have produced for over a decade. Yet, who is leading the title race? That man...Alonso.

Had Alonso managed the situation better in 2007, I am confident he would've won the title in 2007 and 2008 and would've been a 4 time world champ, which is what you would expect from someone who has been the man to beat since 2006. It was his own fault that he made a hash of his time at McLaren and we know that he has learnt from this. In 2010 when he moved to Ferrari, the first thing he did was to get the entire team to rally behind him (something which he did not do in 2007, at McLaren).

For all the above reasons, for me, Alonso is No.1 (and Vettel is No.2).

 

[Skeeter]

I know its your opinion, thats fair enough, but I don't understand why its such a wildly held one?

The same goes for Button. I don't understand why its such a wildly held opinion that he is a 'tier 2' driver at best.

But specifically for Alonso, I agree in 2005 and 06 he was brilliant. I was actually a fan of his. But since then, to me at least, he has just been one of the top drivers and shown moment of brilliance, but not done enough to maintain his outright number 1 status.

But then my personal opinion is that there is no outright number 1. There are 4 top drivers (Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Button*) all with their flaws, who share that space at the top of the field. F1 has not had an outright miles ahead number 1 driver since Schumacher.

*Button is a recent addition to this group, following his 2 years of continual progression at McLaren. If he wins the title this year then Hamilton may be relegated, depending on performance.

 

[Skillmister]

I hate 3 week breaks, also away at a weeding all week end. Hope I can avoid results, untill I can watch it Sunday night.

+1 i was quite disappointed to find there wasn't one to watch this weekend

 

[sunama]

The same goes for Button. I don't understand why its such a wildly held opinion that he is a 'tier 2' driver at best.

Before Button beat Hamilton last year, I held the opinion that he was a great No.2 driver. The best actually.

However, after beating Hamilton, on dry tracks, in equal machinery, he has shown that he has improved into a tier 1 driver, which is what he is at present. Do bear in mind that drivers, like any sportsmen, can go up or down. Just because they are No.1 today, does not mean that they will be No.1 in 2 years.

But specifically for Alonso, I agree in 2005 and 06 he was brilliant. I was actually a fan of his. But since then, to me at least, he has just been one of the top drivers and shown moment of brilliance, but not done enough to maintain his outright number 1 status.

Did you not see the 2010 WDC? He was the only driver able to mix it up with the RBR cars (who were basically, invincible). It is almost unheard of in F1 for the 3rd best car to win the title, but Alonso almost did this. He also finished ahead of the Hamilton, who at the time was widely regarded as his (almost) equal.

On top of this when his peers (F1 drivers currently racing) and the team principles vote him as the best, it makes it difficult to argue against his No.1 status in F1.

You also have to look at how he has compared with this team-mates, in terms of points scored across a season. I think Hamilton was the only one to match Alonso, over the years and that was one of Hamilton's best seasons! Since then Hamilton has dropped, while Alonso has continued to thrash his team-mate and make the car he is driving look half-decent. Last week was a great example. Every single commentator and former driver who has seen videos of the Ferrari being driven state that this Ferrari is a turd. The McLaren (which is driven by Button and Hamilton) and RBR (driven by Vettel), were all faster cars than the Ferrari, yet Alonso won. What does that tell you?


Now, all this may be one huge coincidence. OR, it may just be that Alonso is "that" good.

 

[sunama]

I hate 3 week breaks, also away at a weeding all week end. Hope I can avoid results, untill I can watch it Sunday night.

I would also like to do some weeding in the garden, but there is scaffolding which is preventing me from accessing the garden right now. I hate weeding.

 

[Skeeter]

I think the fact you need to write massive posts kind of supports my view. If Alonso is 'that good' then you wouldn't need to spend ages trying to justify why, I would just agree.

But then there is no right or wrong answer, as we are talking purely subjective viewpoints, and we are both entitled to those. Don't get me wrong, I think Alonso is good, but I don't think he is 'that good'. I'm assuming the paddock sees more of a reason to vote him the best than the public get to see, but from where I am sitting for the last 6 years he had been 'in the fight', but hasn't actually won it.

 

[englishpremier]

On top of this when his peers (F1 drivers currently racing) and the team principles vote him as the best, it makes it difficult to argue against his No.1 status in F1.

This is the truest statement in this whole driver debate. Most of his peers rate him as the best. They are much more knowledgeable about the sport and what makes a great driver than we are.

I would argue that there is actually some margin between Alonso and the next best (which i see as a group of 2 to 3 drivers).

A number of drivers can match his speed on a given day, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel none of them are as a complete a package as Alonso in my opinion.

 

[Duke]

Although I don't particularly like or dislike Alonso, I rate him highly. He seems to pull it out the bag when the opportunity comes up but just a shame Ferrari haven't delivered a half decent car yet and he's not had a good team mate so can't tell how bad the car really is.

 

[dannyjo22]

I would argue that there is actually some margin between Alonso and the next best (which i see as a group of 2 to 3 drivers).

I agree.
2010 for me was his finest year. There is not another driver on the grid that could have taken the title to the wire in that car, neither the fastest or the most reliable. Infact he had plenty of reliability woes and was nursing the car for lots of the season.

When he stated at Silverstone he could still win the title, he was laughed at. He said he just needed to score podium after podium and that's exactly what he did. For me he deserved the 2010 title for all he did in a slower and less reliable car.

I think it's lucky for us that he doesn't have a car better than the rest because no one would get a sniff. Thankfully the Ferrari of today has returned to being the joke of the early 90's

 

[Skeeter]

Hmm... 2010. There are 2 key things about 2010 and Alonso for me.

He had a great second half to the season, but thats only half a season. Were only 2 races into this season and people are already trying to write off Vettel.

And the whole Petrov/Abu Dhabi thing. He had 2 choices, pass Petrov and win the WDC, or not pass Petrov and... not. Yet I struggle to remember him making more than a couple of half baked efforts, while moaning on the radio. I can't help thinking some other drivers would have atleast thrown one up the inside on the half chance.

Yeah he's good, and has some great moments of brilliance, but consistent and a complete package? Nope, not recently. Button is far more consistent than Alonso, and I bet people put a massive gulf between them two.

This is not to say that if Ferrari sort themselves out that he wont climb back to the top and outshine everyone. But as sunama said, drivers cann fluctuate, and for me Alonso is not performing anywhere near his 2005/06 peak. If anything I think his current reputation is hanging on that past success.

 

[dannyjo22]

And the whole Petrov/Abu Dhabi thing. He had 2 choices, pass Petrov and win the WDC, or not pass Petrov and... not. Yet I struggle to remember him making more than a couple of half baked efforts, while moaning on the radio. I can't help thinking some other drivers would have atleast thrown one up the inside on the half chance.

Yeah he's good, and has some great moments of brilliance, but consistent and a complete package? Nope, not recently. Button is far more consistent than Alonso, and I bet people put a massive gulf between them two..

I can't help think that if Flav was still in charge at Renault, Alonso would have been 2010 champion I agree I was surprised he didn't have a go but he wasn't the only one finding it impossible to pass there.

I don't think there is a massive gulf between Alonso and Button but I'd disagree that Button is more consistent. Unless of course you mean he consistently gets less out of the car on a saturday than Alonso

Button falls down for me against Alonso in two areas, Alonso is far better on a saturday than Button. Alonso will also adapt to a bad car where as everything has to be just so for Button.

I think if they were at the same team in a championship winning car it would be closer than people think but Alonso would beat him because of his saturday performances and those weekends when the car wasn't 99%.

My top 4 would be
Alonso
Button
Hamilton
Vettel

In equal equipment at the sharp end I expect all 3 of those to beat Vettel, purely because the others have shown the ability to manage huge pressure with a faster car behind them where Vettel has shown time and time again it gets to him.

I also think it's far too early to write off red bull this year, same as last year people wrote of hamilton as being a wash up.

 

[FrankJH]

The other thing to be considered is that when ever Alonso has had a decent car, his team mate has been 2nd rate at best (ignoring McLaren , which is impossible to say anything about either driver in that year)

So there is no way to know what another "tier -1" driver could do against him in the same car



Just out of interest - does Saturday mean so much any more (ok on circuits like Monaco it obviously does) , with more /different tracks coming online every year quali is becoming less and less important as long as the race pace is good

Occasionally the elements get in the way and top tier cars qualify nearer the back (which is better racing but sometimes out of the control of the teams/ drivers) but even a 1st three row grid position for a McLaren this season for example isnt a death knoll on the chequered flag position

 

[CaptainRAVE]

He had a great second half to the season, but thats only half a season. Were only 2 races into this season and people are already trying to write off Vettel.

Most aren't writing him off, just stating that he is not the wonder boy many have claimed. His behaviour at the last race was not good at all. He is young and it is to be expected though. This season is certainly shaping up to be a good one

 

[dannyjo22]

Just out of interest - does Saturday mean so much any more (ok on circuits like Monaco it obviously does) , with more /different tracks coming online every year quali is becoming less and less important as long as the race pace is good

Maybe not so much with DRS and racing against Lewis but against someone like Alonso who can pace his race and look after his tyres probably better, then yes grid position would matter very much. The championships are usually so tight qualifying two rows back at hungary etc are points you just cannot afford to lose these days.

Even at Brawn once the others caught up a bit Jenson was lost on saturdays and even allowed Rubens to come back at him. There's no way in hell that would have happened to Alonso. He would have put Rubens to bed mid season with all the fight kicked out of him.

I think this year is the year that will define Jenson. If he beats Hamilton again people will have to admit he's much better than they thought. If he doesn't it will be put down to hamilton having a bad year. However harsh that sounds I think that's how it will be remembered.

 

[Skeeter]

Most aren't writing him off, just stating that he is not the wonder boy many have claimed. His behaviour at the last race was not good at all. He is young and it is to be expected though. This season is certainly shaping up to be a good one

It's still a 2nd place and just a bit of bad luck, hardly justifies the swing in opinion some people have placed on Vettel.

But like I've said, this is all opinion, and everyone's will differ. I just find it quite interesting when you examine the reasons behind why people think Alonso is still the best. Especially when you also look at the reasons people slate other drivers.

('People' being a sweeping generalisation not aimed at any specific user).

I agree with dannyjo though, Buttons Saturday pace is, and always has been, his biggest flaw.

 

[sunama]

The other thing to be considered is that when ever Alonso has had a decent car, his team mate has been 2nd rate at best ...

OR could it be that he makes them look 2nd best?
Massa was driving alongside MSc (the greatest driver of all time) and then with Kimi (WDC, who many rate as a very good driver). During this time while not considered great, Massa was always thought as a decent driver.

Enter Alonso in Ferrari. Massa falls apart.

IMO, it isnt that Massa is bad. It's just a case that Alonso is really "that" good and is making Massa look bad.

If you look at 2009 (I think it was): Alonso scored 26 points. The other car scored 0 points.

What Alonso is doing to his team-mates is precisely what MSc did to his team-mate. There is no difference.

 

[sunama]

I think the fact you need to write massive posts kind of supports my view. If Alonso is 'that good' then you wouldn't need to spend ages trying to justify why, I would just agree.

No my friend. When you debate, you come up with bullet points as to why you are for (or against something). You do not debate by saying, "oh...he is the best because he is".

If I was debating for MSc, my list would be even longer.

 

[Overlag]

Opinions will vary and I can only give you my opinion.
Some people, for example, may feel that Rosberg is the best driver in the World...its just an opinion.

In 2005, he, together with Renault, finally ended Ferraris 5 year domination and won the WDC.

In 2006, when MSc had a decent car, Alonso still managed to resist, arguably the best driver of all time, who was still pretty damn good in 2006. He won the title again.
He was a double World champ at a very young age, which shows raw ability and talent. By winning 2 titles, it shows there is consistency and unlike people like D.Hill or Kimi, he was able to repeat his performance.

In 2007, he moved to McLaren. The car was pretty good. Possibly the best.
After he took the lead in the title chase, he was constantly being undermined and had little support (perhaps this was of his own doing). There were stages where he was not on speaking terms with management. I believe this was unprecedented. Despite the constant possibility that he was at any time, about to be fired and was perhaps going to have his WDC challenge thwarted by his own team, he kept the pressure on and still managed to finish 1 point away from the top of the title race. Had he not been demoted in qualifying, at Hungary, he would almost certainly have scored some extra points and won the title.

In 2008, he then moved to Renault who had a bad car. He still won 2 races. 1 of those races was tainted by what Piquet did. But the other race was downright brilliant.

In 2009, the car was a disaster. He still managed to get 26 points, while the drivers in the other car scored a grand total of 0 points.

In 2010, he moved to Ferrari in what was the 3rd best car, yet he was still able to mount a challenge on Vettel and almost beat him in the title race. This is unheard of. For the 3rd best car to win a title race ... this shouldn't happen. But it almost did. At the end of the season, the team principals were all polled. They were asked who the best driver in 2010 was. Alonso finished top. That year, the current F1 drivers were all polled. They were asked who the best driver currently in F1 is. Alonso finished top.

In 2011, the Ferrari wasn't that great. The whole team struggled. He scored 257 pts vs Massa's 118. Now bear in mind that Massa isn't particularly bad and when a driver gets beaten by this sort of margin, you know that the driver who scored the big points is something special. Alonso himself, has gone on record stating that in terms of his own ability, 2011, was his best season.

In 2012, the Ferrari is a complete dog. Perhaps the worst car they have produced for over a decade. Yet, who is leading the title race? That man...Alonso.

Had Alonso managed the situation better in 2007, I am confident he would've won the title in 2007 and 2008 and would've been a 4 time world champ, which is what you would expect from someone who has been the man to beat since 2006. It was his own fault that he made a hash of his time at McLaren and we know that he has learnt from this. In 2010 when he moved to Ferrari, the first thing he did was to get the entire team to rally behind him (something which he did not do in 2007, at McLaren).

For all the above reasons, for me, Alonso is No.1 (and Vettel is No.2).

Great write up that is. I for one totally agree with this. Im not a fan on Alonso, but he has done great things even with shoddy cars. The Malaysian GP being one of them. Id certainly put him on the top step of current drivers in F1. The rest would be hard to choose. Vettel has pure speed, but his attitude when losing reminds me of Hamilton and it just doesn't help. Button just gets on with it. Fair enough everyone moans when its not going right, but Button has a "style" about him that makes him realistic, not negative about a bad situation. Vettel and Hamilton just start crying, and lately Hamilton seems "broken".

1. Alonso.
2. Vettel.
3. Button.
4. Hamilton.

 

[JonnyT]

Hmm... 2010. There are 2 key things about 2010 and Alonso for me.

He had a great second half to the season, but thats only half a season. Were only 2 races into this season and people are already trying to write off Vettel.

And the whole Petrov/Abu Dhabi thing. He had 2 choices, pass Petrov and win the WDC, or not pass Petrov and... not. Yet I struggle to remember him making more than a couple of half baked efforts, while moaning on the radio. I can't help thinking some other drivers would have atleast thrown one up the inside on the half chance.

Yeah he's good, and has some great moments of brilliance, but consistent and a complete package? Nope, not recently. Button is far more consistent than Alonso, and I bet people put a massive gulf between them two.

This is not to say that if Ferrari sort themselves out that he wont climb back to the top and outshine everyone. But as sunama said, drivers cann fluctuate, and for me Alonso is not performing anywhere near his 2005/06 peak. If anything I think his current reputation is hanging on that past success.

Also in 2010 don't forget the whole 'Fernando is faster than you' debacle where he was unable to get past his team mate, whom he claimed he was faster than, without crying on the team radio to the team.

Can't stand the man. I 100% respect his ability but don't think he is quite as good as he is made out to be, and he can be a massively petchulant child when things don't go his way.

Some responses to Sunama:

2005:
Yes he drove well but he (and the rest of the field) lucked out that Bridgestone had quite simply failed to produce a competetive tyre to last the race distance (as were the regulations that year). Also arguably was lucky that McLaren produced a quick-but-fragile car otherwise the title could (and perhaps should) have gone to Kimi

2006:
Drove very well for the most part against a back on form Schumacher. Acted like a child when he was demoted at Monza for impeding Massa's lap; witness the "F1 as a sport is dead to me" line.

2007:
Waltzed into a new team claiming that he instantly brought '6 tenths' of speed improvement with him. Expected de facto numero uno treatment from the team and couldn't handle it when a rookie began to challenge him. Liked it even less when the team refused to force Hamilton to pull rank and so took matters into his own hands threatening to 'run and tell teacher' about the Spygate affair.

2008:
Cheated his way to the Singapore win and then stood by as Piquet Jnr (who had willingly fallen on his own sword in order for this to happen) was hung out to dry by Flav

2010:
Car decent but definitely 3rd best. Lucked into Silverstone win by virtue of the blown diffuser row; arguments reached a head at Silverstone and for this one race the Exhaust Blown Diffuser was restricted via engine map restrictions. This hurt Red Bull and particularly McLaren much more than Ferrari. Then there was him having to get his team mate moved out of his way via crying on the radio despite being 'faster' at Hockenheim. Another lucky win in Korea as Webber threw it away badly and Vettel suffered a rare mechanical problem. Finally couldn't even get alongside let alone past Petrov with the Championship on a plate waiting in Abu Dhabi.

There's also a thread going on the PlanetF1 forums about how Alonso demanded that Massa rather than Kimi be his teammate at Ferrari, and that Ferrari deliberately sabotaged Kimi's 2008 campaign, which he was leading after 4 races, to try to force him out.

So no, I'm not a fan really

 

[sunama]

There's also a thread going on the PlanetF1 forums about how Alonso demanded that Massa rather than Kimi be his teammate at Ferrari, and that Ferrari deliberately sabotaged Kimi's 2008 campaign, which he was leading after 4 races, to try to force him out.

So no, I'm not a fan really

Ask yourself this question. Would Ferrari - multi million dollar operation - deliberately sabotage their lead driver?

I've heard of the No.1 driver getting preferential treatment, but I've not heard of deliberately sabotaging the No.1 driver, just so that the No.2 driver looks good.

If this was a US$100/year operation, then fine...they could do this. But when you are dealing with circa US$400M/year, you can't play these sort of games.

Also, just to point out, we are not discussing whether or not you like Alonso or would want him round for dinner. We are asking, just who is No.1 and why many people believe him to be No.1.

He may be a nasty piece of work (this is beside the point and of no relevance), but is he the best driver?

With regards to what happened in Germany, with Massa, in 2010 - swapping positions in races, happens a lot, especially when one car is holding the other up and this was in 2010 when overtaking was very difficult. It just so happened that because it was for the lead, everybody was up in arms. McLaren also orchestrated a changeover (or hold positions), by using the code words, "save fuel". Would you rather Ferrari have said, "Fillipe, you need to save fuel", a la McLaren? Would that make you feel better?