Malaysian GP 2009 - Race 2/17

The football comparism is a bit of a silly one really - would you like to tell me how many different teams have won the premiership since it's inception? And how many teams are there in England that have played in the Premiership? The ratio suddenly looks a lot better in F1's favour.

There are plenty of races where I couldn't tell you who is most likely to win. I *expect* Button to win the next race, in the same way I expect Man Utd to win most of their football matches this season, or Chelsea in previous seasons. Last year we had Vettel win a race from pole in a Torro Rosso, completely on merit and there were quite a few different winners over the season.

BTCC is more like a lottery, and in fact partly *is* based on a lottery - that to me isn't true racing.
It's only a silly comparison when you obviously miss the point entirely and start talking about teams that don't even qualify to play in the Premier League, then shoot the argument down based on that assertion. Hello straw man, it's nice to meet you!

Answer me this simple question: Before the 2009 season started would you have expected Button to win the first race? Would you have expected him to be anywhere of note? Would you have expected Hamilton to be struggling to get a top 10 grid place? If you answer "yes" to any of the above you're quite frankly lying or trolling.

I only expect Button to win now because his car is quite clearly much better than everyone elses, and therein lies the rub.

At the end of the day if you're happy watching a game where the results are broadly predetermined then more power to you. I'd pick a system like BTCC where the cars are all equal and the defining characteristic between who wins and loses is entirely driver skill than the reverse any day.
 
Yeah totally, coming 6th and 9th in two races with the rest of the season no higher than 10th is clearly the mark of a championship winning driver... I mean car.

Again you've missed my point entirely. Once again for the cheap seats - I never said Button wasn't capable of winning the championship, I'm saying that going from 10th+ in every single race last season to pole/1st twice this season just proves to me that the car makes too much of a difference. That's my point.

Carl Fogarty. World Champion on the bikes several times. Changes to another bike and struggles to be competitive. You don't win races if you're not up to the job. Sure its part driver part car. You can't put s'macker in a crappy car and expect him to win races, yet he's been world champion over and over.

Stating the obvious about the car being a big part of the deal is just plain silly. Ofcourse it is!
 
It's only a silly comparison when you obviously miss the point entirely and start talking about teams that don't even qualify to play in the Premier League, then shoot the argument down based on that assertion. Hello straw man, it's nice to meet you!

Answer me this simple question: Before the 2009 season started would you have expected Button to win the first race? Would you have expected him to be anywhere of note? Would you have expected Hamilton to be struggling to get a top 10 grid place? If you answer "yes" to any of the above you're quite frankly lying or trolling.

I only expect Button to win now because his car is quite clearly much better than everyone elses, and therein lies the rub.

At the end of the day if you're happy watching a game where the results are broadly predetermined then more power to you. I'd pick a system like BTCC where the cars are all equal and the defining characteristic between who wins and loses is entirely driver skill than the reverse any day.

The cars are not equal in BTCC though, they punish a driver for being too quick by putting weight in his car and sending him down the grid for the next race. It doesn't reward a driver for being quick - quite the opposite, it apprently also fools you into thinking the cars are all similar by handicapping the fastest drivers. Anyway as you are starting to get aggressive now I'll bid you good day.
 
Carl Fogarty. World Champion on the bikes several times. Changes to another bike and struggles to be competitive. You don't win races if you're not up to the job. Sure its part driver part car. You can't put s'macker in a crappy car and expect him to win races, yet he's been world champion over and over.

Stating the obvious about the car being a big part of the deal is just plain silly. Ofcourse it is!
I can understand it, but it doesn't mean to say I have to agree with it. That's pretty much my entire point.

If you stuck Schumy in a crap car and he came nowhere (which definitely would be the case in F1) does that mean he's a crap driver? Nope, but what metric do people gauge sportsmen on? Unless I'm mistaken it's usually on how successful they are. Button (or whoever) could make all the best moves on the track and it isn't worth a damn if every race he ends up outside the points, for no other reason than his car is just that bit crappier than everyone elses.

What I guess I'm saying is that I personally am not happy to watch a sport where great drivers have practically zero chance of getting anywhere simply because their car - not their skill - is the defining characteristic of their ability to succeed. F1 seems to be the worst for this, though as in your example I'm sure it's not the only example where it is prevalant.
 
The cars are not equal in BTCC though, they punish a driver for being too quick by putting weight in his car and sending him down the grid for the next race. It doesn't reward a driver for being quick - quite the opposite, it apprently also fools you into thinking the cars are all similar by handicapping the fastest drivers. Anyway as you are starting to get aggressive now I'll bid you good day.
Not sure how you've deemed I'm being aggressive :confused:, though thanks for not bothering to refute any of my questions.

e: I'll admit though that your points about BTCC are sound - it's possible to go the other way entirely and arbitrarily punish driver skill to just make the event more of a spectacle, and I don't think that's fair either.
 
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sour grapes agreed .. but


he's got a point

the three teams with the diffusers are the ones with the pace so far.

if his team came up with that diffuser he would say well its up to the other teams to catch up, he and the rest arent happy because there missing out

There lies the problem, you dont know the whole story yet choose to tell us all you are right with the bits you do have.

At least 3 teams went to the FIA with similar proposals, all were turned down as deemed to be against the rules yet come launch time we get 3 teams show up with said diffusers.

Strange that the 3 teams in question were widely tipped to leave F1 due to funding.

oh no a conspiracy theory:D
 
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I can understand it, but it doesn't mean to say I have to agree with it. That's pretty much my entire point.

If you stuck Schumy in a crap car and he came nowhere (which definitely would be the case in F1) does that mean he's a crap driver? Nope, but what metric do people gauge sportsmen on? Unless I'm mistaken it's usually on how successful they are. Button (or whoever) could make all the best moves on the track and it isn't worth a damn if every race he ends up outside the points, for no other reason than his car is just that bit crappier than everyone elses.

What I guess I'm saying is that I personally am not happy to watch a sport where great drivers have practically zero chance of getting anywhere simply because their car - not their skill - is the defining characteristic of their ability to succeed. F1 seems to be the worst for this, though as in your example I'm sure it's not the only example where it is prevalant.

I see what you're saying :)
 
At the end of the day F1 is as much about the car as it is the driver. It's always been this way, and always will be unless they change the regulations which make all the cars identical. If that happens it will then no longer be F1.

F1 is about pushing the limits of the rules with the cars.
 
If you want to know how good a driver is you can always look at their teammate and the picture becomes quite clear, Button > Barrichello, Alonso > Piquet, Hamilton > Kovalainen and M.Schumacher > every teammate he has ever had.

Driver talent does have an influence on the results, but up to a point.

If you put a very good goal scorer in football in a crap team he will score less compared to being in a good team.
 
.....snip.......

What I guess I'm saying is that I personally am not happy to watch a sport where great drivers have practically zero chance of getting anywhere simply because their car - not their skill - is the defining characteristic of their ability to succeed. F1 seems to be the worst for this, though as in your example I'm sure it's not the only example where it is prevalant.

The trouble is when you get the reverse situation no driver will want to compete in that kind of a formula.

When Formula Palmer Audi first started out in 1998, Johnathan Palmer wanted to create a motorsport spectacle, in which there was a completely level playing field, with regard to equipment, so that driver talent was the only thing that stood between a driver doing well or not.

The cars wre designed and built to be completely identical in every respect, apart from a few driver dependent adjustments, such as bump and rebound, anti roll bar settings, tyre pressures, brake bias settings and a few others.

For the first couple of years, the series pulled in a lot of very good up and coming drivers, a lot of who have gone on to be big names in all sorts of other series, even making F1 in one case.

However the series became far too good for its own benefit. Eventually the cars were so identical in performance that the only difference between getting first place on a grid, and last place, was the sole fact, that the last place bloke was a slower driver than the first place bloke, end of.

No motorsport driver wants to be shown, that they have no talent, so once it became obvious to the drivers that there was nowhere to hide if they were not getting the results, i.e. they could not say " he has a better engine than me", " so and so has a better suspension than me", " him over there has a better diffuser than me", the series, in it's original format, died a death, because it could not attract the kind of driver talent that Johnathan Palmer was originally looking for.

Motorsport drivers are a very vain bunch, they always want to make sure that if they are not doing well there is someone, or something else to blame, rather than their own inadequacies.
 

I find that to be half the reason Raikkonen fails so badly these days. Head has dissapeared too far up his own bottom. Rude and more than a little bit thick.

When I watch Kimi the ferrari driver it seems far removed from the driver who ploughed through the smoke on a hot lap with 100% bravery. If you watch some of the early raikkonen in the mclaren that driver is all but gone.

Something at ferrari or in his personal life has worn him out. Maybe going to ferrari when all the top men have bailed has left him a bit exposed.

Maybe he's achieved all he wanted, but he should atleast have the grace of mika and know when to quit.

Its a shame because I really thought he would end up a great of F1. I'd say his best driving was in the years before he won the title.
 
I find that to be half the reason Raikkonen fails so badly these days. Head has dissapeared too far up his own bottom. Rude and more than a little bit thick.

When I watch Kimi the ferrari driver it seems far removed from the driver who ploughed through the smoke on a hot lap with 100% bravery. If you watch some of the early raikkonen in the mclaren that driver is all but gone.

Something at ferrari or in his personal life has worn him out. Maybe going to ferrari when all the top men have bailed has left him a bit exposed.

Maybe he's achieved all he wanted, but he should atleast have the grace of mika and know when to quit.

Its a shame because I really thought he would end up a great of F1. I'd say his best driving was in the years before he won the title.
I completely agree - he's also not a member of the GPDA which says a lot about his relationship with fellow drivers.

If anyone deserves the title of 'journeyman' it's surely Kimi - he's in it for the money and nothing more.
 
I see a lot of parallels between Kimi right now and Villeneuve. Both got to the top moved on an expected their own pure talent to be enough to win again. A couple of years where it didn't go well and the will to carry on ebbed away. The kimi that drove the mclaren is certainly nothing like the article sitting in the ferrari.

I think it happens to a lot of them. The only way you will see kimi on fire again is if the engineers deliver him a world beater, he doesn't look like he can be arsed to try to help out himself.

He gave up yesterday. Regardless of rain he wasn't gonna drive again no matter what.

Sad to see.
 
Its a shame because I really thought he would end up a great of F1. I'd say his best driving was in the years before he won the title.

He would have won with McLaren if it wernt for reliability issues, wouldnt he? I'm pretty sure one of his seasons was pretty close with Schumacher..
 
He would have won with McLaren if it wernt for reliability issues, wouldnt he? I'm pretty sure one of his seasons was pretty close with Schumacher..

With Alonso, Kimi drove the wheels off the car and Alonso's consistency won him the title. That for me was kimi's best year. The 2nd best year was the year of the michelin tyre row.

When he was on fire he was simply unbeatable. The trouble is I think he's car set up is lacking. If he turns up on a race weekend and the car is fine he's mega, if not he doesn't seem to be able to turn a weekend around.

He's always looked a few races away from the boot at ferrari and I can easily see him going before the end of the year.
 
Thats what I was thinking of MarcLister! Good work.
With Alonso, Kimi drove the wheels off the car and Alonso's consistency won him the title. That for me was kimi's best year. The 2nd best year was the year of the michelin tyre row.

When he was on fire he was simply unbeatable. The trouble is I think he's car set up is lacking. If he turns up on a race weekend and the car is fine he's mega, if not he doesn't seem to be able to turn a weekend around.

He's always looked a few races away from the boot at ferrari and I can easily see him going before the end of the year.

I agree. I think its a bit of a catch22 for Kimi. He is too laid back and although its funny and entertaining for viewers he is becoming a bit of a joke. I dont think he is too bothered to set up the car. He would much prefer to get to the race and have had someone set the car up perfectly.. jump in it.. and drive its wheels off.

If its not perfect I dont see his passion to get it right. He just brushes it off and has an ice cream. Next race please..
 
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