May 20 is ‘Everybody Draw Mohammed Day’

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I believe the oldest quranic text known as 'Quran of Uthman' whose content which dates back to time of prophet Muhammed was compiled under the guidance of Uthman(close companion and son in law of Prophet Muhammed) after death of Prophet Muhammed and checked by Ali ibn Talib (cousin of Prophet Muhammed and 2nd most important islamic figure) is placed in an istanbul museaum in Turkey.
Now I dare you to take any book of Quran and go and compare it to that original Quran. I am 100% sure you won't find any +/- arabic words in either the new quran or the original quran. ;)

That is not so, here read this article regarding the Sana's manuscript its the earliest Koran and differs to Uthman's version .... http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2000/aug/08/highereducation.theguardian
 
Anyone who thinks the universe with all it's billions of galaxies and billions of solar systems, came about by itself should probably seek help?

Why? Because they simply know and speak the truth?

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/how-do-stars-form-and-evolve/

lol.

Belief in Religion is a rejection of modern science and intelligence. You need to forgo scientific and logical understanding and truths to be able to believe in any form of creationism as an absolute disprovable fact, including the idea of god.

Another brilliant video for anyone that wants to watch it:

 
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Why? Because they simply know and speak the truth?

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/how-do-stars-form-and-evolve/

lol.

Belief in Religion is a rejection of modern science and intelligence. You need to forgo scientific and logical understanding and truths to be able to believe in any form of creationism as an absolute disprovable fact, including the idea of god.

Another brilliant video for anyone that wants to watch it:


This one is by a hot atheist girl, OMG How dare she insult Islam!!! :p


You do realise that many Scientist's, incuding Cosmologists are followers of religions and/or belief is some form of God.

Max Planck for example was a church warden as well as the father of Quantum Theory. Albert Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

I suppose they both lacked intelligence and rejected Science...:rolleyes:
 
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Yet there is a difference between belief in God and adherence to a specific religion. I agree you chances of following a specific religion can be determined somewhat by the local culture of he region in which you are born, but that doesn't affect each persons ability to choose a basic belief in a God.

[Note: We're talking about clasic religions where disbelieving in God = Hell]

You're skipping the important element here - and this is what I'm drilling at. So I'll repeat the question again, take a thousand people at random in various countries/cultures. Are you suggesting to me that across all these test sets we'll end up whe the same number of athiests (non-believers)? Or do you think we'll see some sizable differences, a lot of which is dependant upon the culture they are in?


Yes, everyone of course has a choice (well most people), but at the end of the day, the choice they make will be affected by the events, culture and people around them. Brought up in a highly religious culture? Chances are you end up one of them. Brought up in a fairly athiestic society, you'll be less likely...


And then the moment you acknowledge any difference at all, even 0.1%, the 'test' crumbles... Had someone been born somewhere else, they may have not been an athiest, and not ended up in hell. How is the system logical or fair?
 
[Note: We're talking about clasic religions where disbelieving in God = Hell]

You're skipping the important element here - and this is what I'm drilling at. So I'll repeat the question again, take a thousand people at random in various countries/cultures. Are you suggesting to me that across all these test sets we'll end up whe the same number of athiests (non-believers)? Or do you think we'll see some sizable differences, a lot of which is dependant upon the culture they are in?


Yes, everyone of course has a choice (well most people), but at the end of the day, the choice they make will be affected by the events, culture and people around them. Brought up in a highly religious culture? Chances are you end up one of them. Brought up in a fairly athiestic society, you'll be less likely...


And then the moment you acknowledge any difference at all, even 0.1%, the 'test' crumbles... Had someone been born somewhere else, they may have not been an athiest, and not ended up in hell. How is the system logical or fair?


What your're talking about is indoctrination. Are you more likely to be indoctrinated into a specific religion in Turkey than the UK, Yes, but the unfairness in that is not that they are more likely to believe in God, but that they have less choice in what to believe. Unlike you and I, who have had the fortune to have been born into a culture which generally frowns upon indoctrination.
 
What your're talking about is indoctrination. Are you more likely to be indoctrinated into a specific religion in Turkey than the UK, Yes, but the unfairness in that is not that they are more likely to believe in God, but that they have less choice in what to believe. Unlike you and I, who have had the fortune to have been born into a culture which generally frowns upon indoctrination.

Still just cannot agree with you.

So once again, are you suggesting that if we took a testset of 1000 people in various countries, the number who believe in a God, would be a consistant figure, no matter what culture, what country and indeed even what century?

For example, here the UK, I suspect the percentage of the population being athiest has grown over the past X hundred years? Would you disagree?
 
That is not so, here read this article regarding the Sana's manuscript its the earliest Koran and differs to Uthman's version .... http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2000/aug/08/highereducation.theguardian

It is an interesting read. Prophet Muhammed used to recite revelations to his companions who not only used to memorize them by heart but also wrote them on tree wood, stone tablets etc. The arabs at that time had very strong oral tradition as literacy wasn't widespread. So during the time of Prophet Muhammed many of his companions memorised by heart his whole revelations while others wrote it down.

All the revelations that came to Prophet Muhammed didn't come in one single day. It was a gradual process and took 23 years for the whole process to complete. Infact there were early copies of Quran produced during Prophet Muhammed time while the whole process was still ongoing; otherwise the message couldn't have spread further.

Prophet Muhammed passed away in 632AD. Then it was khalif Abubakr (one of the top and closest companion) who took charge of the leadership of muslim community (632 -634AD)(although with some disputes to the successer of prophet) who actually started the whole process of compiling Quran once and for all containing everything within. He tasked Zaid ibn Thabit to collect all the verses of Quran from people who had with them written texts on stones, palm leaves etc aswell as oral recitations.

All the texts Zaid collected had to be verified orally by the companions who learnt everything by heart Prophet Muhammed's recited revelations up until his death. So in the end Quran was produced in final form and this was the only 'Complete Original Manuscript' ever which was passed onto 2nd Khalif Umar ibn Khattab who's reign was (634-644AD) who then passed it onto his daughter Hafsa who also happes to be Prophet Muhammed's wife.

Now we come into 3rd Khalif Uthman(Usman) Ibn Affan era (644-656AD).
During his time Islam spread further and people started having disputes with regard to dialect of Quran (not the wording of Quran) as the Quran was still available in stones, tree wood etc. What Khalif Uthman did was to request the original Quranic Manuscript (compiled during abubakr reign) from Hafsa and had that quran rewritten in a standard text without any changing in word.
He sent the original back to Hafsa. He could have told Hafsa to burn the original manuscript but he didn't. What He most probably did was to rewrite the original Quranic manuscript in Qurayshi dialect as this was the dialect of prophet Muhammed and circuled these copies far and wide. These copies became known as 'Uthman Quran'; and the rest of bits and bobs on trees , stones, leaves etc were burnt.

About Samarkand and Topkapi scripts I do apologise that I was slight ignorant as I always thought that the 'Uthman Quran' was in Turkey in complete form but that doesn't seem to be the case and Gaidin 109 is correct in saying that these are incomplete copies of quran written in kufic script/dialect. If these are claimed to be written after 150 years then they aren't 'Uthman Quran'.

As for Sana script which is still incomplete it seems to be dated 710AD onwards. So it still can't be the 'Usman Quran'. Also puin only found minor textual variations (I am assuming he compared sana to samarkand and topkapi), different ordering of chapters and different orthography styling aswell as the script written without any diacritical marks, vowel symbols or any guide to how it should be read. Which leads me to the conclusion that the original wording of the Quran still hasn't been tempered with. It's not like we suddenly discover an ancient Quran which claims that Muhammed is God as opposed to being a prophet of One God as we are taught in islam.

The problem is that arabic language though being one whole language has many different regional variations which result in arabic people speaking different dialects depending on where they are from in the middle east. So though they may be pronouncing same sentence they could end up with slight different interpretaion but not the wording.

Me being a non-arab muslim would find it very difficult to read Quran in arabic without any diacritical marks as I wouldn't know how to pronounce those words with out the help of an expert arabic teacher well versed in different dialects and arabic language technicalities. As for hajjaj adding those diacritics that would be to help people like me to read Quran and he wouldn't have done so with out the backing of religious scholars well versed in this issue. But again he didn't change the wording of Quran.

Now I am no linguistic expert but an analogy could be drawn here by using a simple english language sentence:

'He is going to park' and 'He ls golng to park' (I had to use l :D)

Now you can immediately see the difference between two sentences though the wording is the same. The first one immediately makes sense and we can easily read but second one without the diacritic on i is confusing. This results in many different interpretations unless someone is specialist in english language.;)

As for puin claim that there is pre islamic text that has crept in Quran; well then there is also mention of jesus, moses, abraham, jacob, ishmael, isaaq, pharoah etc who are all pre islamic individuals some dating back 2000-4000 years as God has knowledge of past, present and future and nothing is hidden from Him. He could easily have told prophet Muhammed the past events which is the case with adam, pharoah, moses, etc.

Personally I wouldn't take Puin opinions as absolute truth about Quran language compared to a native arabic linguistic expert.In the end I can only draw conclusion that sana, topkapi, samarkand, and ma'il are incomplete copies of Quran with different diacritics but same wording though they display different chapters which may be positioned differently but not altered majorly.

This does lead to the question as to where did the 'Original Quran Manuscript' compiled by Abubakr and kept by Hafsa go. Also where did the 'Uthman Quran' go and which Quran has been used to scribe modern qurans. I personally guess it is probably the one used during Hajjaj reign which has been scribed through the generations but I still need to ask an Imam. ;)
 
Still just cannot agree with you.

So once again, are you suggesting that if we took a testset of 1000 people in various countries, the number who believe in a God, would be a consistant figure, no matter what culture, what country and indeed even what century?

For example, here the UK, I suspect the percentage of the population being athiest has grown over the past X hundred years? Would you disagree?

No the figure would not be consistant, Overall the level of Atheisism, even in western countries is very small when compared to the overall beliefs of the population.

What was Estonia? (the most Atheisic Country in Europe) 160 per 1000 had no belief in a God of some description. Regionally I suspect that you would have to be very careful how you choose the demographic, Spain for example would have very high levels of Catholism in Rural areas compared to the inner cities.

I think that Western Europe especially has seen a move away from organised Religion to favour a more freethinking attitude toward spirituality, that doesn't preclude believing in some form of God however, so I don't think that your point that it is inherently unfair to be born somewhere more secular with regard to choice over believing in God is valid.
 
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Of course lots of people are going to believe in religion when it is taught and preached to most people from early childhood.

Also, the majority of people arent particularly intelligent either.

Im not making any conclusions, or linking the two, however IQ studies in the US have shown that states which have higher proportions of believers also have lower average IQ test results.
 
I think that Western Europe especially has seen a move away from organised Religion to favour a more freethinking attitude toward spirituality, that doesn't preclude believing in some form of God however, so I don't think that your point that it is inherently unfair to be born somewhere more secular with regard to choice over believing in God is valid.

Unless of course one of the religions with the jealous exclusive god is correct, in which case unless you happen to be born into a country where worship of said god is prevelant then you are much more likely to be hellbound.
 
Unless of course one of the religions with the jealous exclusive god is correct, in which case unless you happen to be born into a country where worship of said god is prevelant then you are much more likely to be hellbound.

Neither Islam or Christianity specifically claim that you will go to hell for non-belief of their God, Islam especially makes reference to their God being the same as the other predominant Religions. You can ignore all the fundamentalist claptrap as poor interpretation.

Judaism is pretty clear that as long as everyone follows the commandments of Noah, then you're fine.

The problem I see is if you are Hindu, both Islam and Judaism see Idolatry as high up on the big NO-NO sins and I suppose if you are Hindu, you better wish that Shiva et al are real and Yahwey, Allah or God are not. :p
 
The problem I see is if you are Hindu, both Islam and Judaism see Idolatry as high up on the big NO-NO sins and I suppose if you are Hindu, you better wish that Shiva et al are real and Yahwey, Allah or God are not. :p

Enough reason for one to justify that no one religion can be true when each belief system is so contradictory to one another?

Idolatry / Polytheism, or Shirk in the Koran is the single, worst, and only unforgivable sin in Islam.
 
Enough reason for one to justify that no one religion can be true when each belief system is so contradictory to one another?

Idolatry / Polytheism, or Shirk in the Koran is the single, worst, and only unforgivable sin in Islam.

Judaism is the same, with the other 6 Commandments of Noah thrown in. Noah's commandments are valid for all mankind accirdingvto the Jews.
 
Enough reason for one to justify that no one religion can be true when each belief system is so contradictory to one another?

Idolatry / Polytheism, or Shirk in the Koran is the single, worst, and only unforgivable sin in Islam.

Isn't there also a case of one God in hinduism who reign supreme at the top though hindus also worship different gods. When in hindi films the actors are shown praying to God by calling Him 'Bhagvaan'; isn't Bhagvan referred to One supreme deity
 
Isn't there also a case of one God in hinduism who reign supreme at the top though hindus also worship different gods. When in hindi films the actors are shown praying to God by calling Him 'Bhagvaan'; isn't Bhagvan referred to One supreme deity

No, Bhagvaan means God. All Hindu Gods are called Bhagvaans.

Brahma is the God of creation, and one of the three main gods - himself, shiva and vishnu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma

But all Hindu Gods are Bhagvaans.
 
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