Monaco Grand Prix 2012, Monte Carlo - Race 6/20

drunkenmaster said:
Jesus christ, and they didn't black/orange flag the guy without the rear wing(which played a part I think) and didn't they let him win basically under the safety car despite weaving around.

I say I think the rear wing played a part as, is he not breaking much earlier for the chicane because he'll have smeg all downforce, and its probably breaking early which causes the collision, slightly like the Senna/Schumi crash last race if you ask me, slight second move coupled with breaking early(though here you should expect it with a guy without a freaking rear wing).

Crazy height though and from that angle I thought the car was going to swipe that marshall on the platform, thank god it just looked that way and he was really further back, that would have been horrendous if he got clipped by the car flying that fast, basically lethal.

Great it got out of that seemingly unhurt.
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They didn't show him the meatball as the wing was gone, nothing was hanging off the car.

Multiple moves? Perhaps. Looked like he took the racing line through the tunnel and then stuck pretty much to the middle of the track after coming out. May be a little move, but nothing that I would consider obvious weaving/blocking

He just had to brake early as with no rear wing and a damaged diffuser he was down a large amount of rear downforce. *there was multiple contacts between the 2 cars, he kept knocking chunks out of the rear of that poor car* I think that was the main cause of the accident. And that was Connor Daly's fault.

Back to F1.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99916

Yes, cold tyres after 2 laps.... :rolleyes:

sr4470 said:
Kovalainen put in a strong showing too, just about nudging the back of the established teams.
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Heikki was getting traffic in the form of Glock. They reckon if it wasn't for him they would have got into Q2.
 
Fastest laps don't mean an awful lot, especially as that isn't race pace this season due to the whole tyres thing and a different tyre strategy throws that out the window.

The biggest gap would likely be in Spain where Hamilton is way back in traffic and nursing a two stopper while Alonso and Malda-richdaddio were bombing around on three stops going as fast as possible with little to no traffic.

Same reasoning for Massa/Alonso comparison, to some degree qualifying if you aren't stuck in traffic gives a truer sense of the difference, races are entirely different beasts. 2 tenths in qualifying today could be say starting 4th instead of 2nd, and getting stuck behind 12th instead of 6-7th once you come out of the pit for instance.

Also you've changed your tune on qualifying and using that as a reason Button is better, being a second faster on average than someone in a different car is no comparison at all, the difference between a truly great driver and that particular car's likely top performance and the gap how far off that Button/Massa are is a much fairer comparison.

Fact is that Massa is 2-3 tenths down on Alonso, and Alonso is a fantastic driver and that's really not shameful, but being Ferrari aren't very fast in qualifying(mostly so far) that 2-3 tenths pushes Massa pretty far back and missing Q3 too often, something Button is now also doing but with a faster more competitive car overall, especially in qualifying.

Fact is, put Button in the Ferrari, he'll be 2-3tenths down on Alonso and he'll have started races further back also, and that would effect all those stats.

Fastest laps mean very little in comparison in races as you can be on fresh super softs with no traffic, or old hards and behind traffic and you shouldn't get the same speeds. Likewise unless you're basically starting in the same car, in the same position its very hard to compare to each other.

Qualifying takes some/most of those differences out making the comparison easier and fairer.
 
Flibster said:
They didn't show him the meatball as the wing was gone, nothing was hanging off the car.

Multiple moves? Perhaps. Looked like he took the racing line through the tunnel and then stuck pretty much to the middle of the track after coming out. May be a little move, but nothing that I would consider obvious weaving/blocking
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It looked to me like, into the tunnel he made a move to the right defensively, then the turn of the tunnel takes you slightly left again, then he moves right again as a defensive move at the end of the tunnel, then he starts to move left again as another defensive move.

It's hard to say but, meh, essentially because of no rear wing, while it wasn't bits falling off dangerous, he was dangerous in terms of slow car on the track dangerous. There is some expectation of when the guy in front while slow down, if someone with a normal car did it down the middle of a straight with a guy towing he'd get blamed, the guy behind can't really tell when the guy infront will slam on the brakes so comes across as a fairly dangerous situation so not sure he should have been allowed to stay out.

But I think there is definitely too many moves, even if small, he jinked right, even if not far, that caused the guy behind to head inside, and to be fair, if he's assuming he's gone right AND has to brake early it would seem to be a clear overtaking opportunity but then he moves across and slows.
 
drunkenmaster said:
stuff
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Mr Men brought lap times into it — I simply crunched the numbers.

I agree totally with you and with Glaucus that these stats are pretty meaningless, especially if you don't take into account other factors like qualifying position, final race position and WDC points.

However, now that I've got the numbers in front of me, it's quite interesting to do some other comparisons.

I know it's hard to compare two drivers in different equipment but it's not like we have any data on Button in a Ferrari so I made the best of what I had available.

I could do Button Vs. Alonso if you like?

*Edit* did it anyway:

Button's sum best qualifying is 2.511 seconds faster than Alonso (or 0.419 average per qualifying session).

Button's sum fastest laps are 0.323 seconds faster than Alonso (or 0.065 average per race).
 
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Glaucus said:
yep, little surprised, he beats JB in one stat. But that's still only one stat out of what 7. Points tell the right story. A couple off places between them compaed to 15places.
And let's not forget when's te last time, Fm did something good? Compaed to what JB has done for the last 3seasons.
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LOL so much for my BS then yeah, Jenson is being thrashed and it makes no difference what he has done in the past, this is now. Just funny how this forum mocks Felipe for never being in Q3 yet he is closer to Alonso in qual than Jenson is to Lewis, points mean little really when comparing 2 team mates see MS v Nico for a good example why points paint a terrible picture, as MS has been driving very well yet his points total suggests he has been doing rubbish.
 
:rolleyes: how did I know you would come back and say that. He is far from being thrashed. Points mean a lot, a huge amount. The most important thing. Setting one fast lap, means nothing. If you are **** in the race.
So one stat favors your view, bu every other stat doesn't. Yet you keep saying this Bs.
 
Glaucus said:
:rolleyes: how did I know you would come back and say that. He is far from being thrashed. Points mean a lot, a huge amount. The most important thing. Setting one fast lap, means nothing. If you are **** in the race.
So one stat favors your view, bu every other stat doesn't. Yet you keep saying this Bs.
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Someone can't handle the truth, saying I was retarded and talking BS, yet the facts show Button is further away from his team mate than Massa is. Hamilton is dominating Jenson no doubt about it. Points mean nothing when comparing 2 drivers in the same team, laptimes show you all you need to know.

Drunkenmaster explained it very well previously.
 
Mr Men said:
LOL so much for my BS then yeah, Jenson is being thrashed and it makes no difference what he has done in the past, this is now. Just funny how this forum mocks Felipe for never being in Q3 yet he is closer to Alonso in qual than Jenson is to Lewis, points mean little really when comparing 2 team mates see MS v Nico for a good example why points paint a terrible picture, as MS has been driving very well yet his points total suggests he has been doing rubbish.
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What, it makes no difference because it suits your argument? Button has done more than massa ever will in F1.
 
CaptainRAVE said:
What, it makes no difference because it suits your argument? Button has done more than massa ever will in F1.
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Indeed he has, not sure how that matter to him being dominated by Lewis? seems I have touched a nerve.

So Jenson is sitting tonight thinking he has done a good job?

Can you tell me why the points show something, look at Nico v MS and tell me why the points show who is doing better? Oh yeah that would show you points are not relevant to how a driver is performing against his team mate.
 
Dominatded by LH, whdich team mate lead last year? What th placed iffedrdence between the two manufacture drivers this year?selective stats.
Which drivers have won a race ths yeah.

Points are about the only thing that matter. It's what the championship is based on. One fast lap, does not secure you any points.

On top of that who's doing better in race pace, against team mate?
 
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Glaucus said:
Dominatded by LH, whdich team mate lead last year? What th placed iffedrdence between the two manufacture drivers this year?selective stats.
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Last year is history, we are talking about this season, and you want to say I use selective stats when you have to rely on previous seasons?

Points are not the only thing that matters when comparing 2 drivers in a team, are you deliberately being stupid? tell me how lower teams compare drivers when points are rare to come by?

Let's say Jenson had led every race and the car blows up on the last lap, he was 50 seconds ahead of Lewis, yet Lewis has won every race despite being miles behind on pace, who would you say is doing better, Lewis because of the points? I think not!
 
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No when people talk about getting rid of massa, it is not based on Sony this year.

One year all though rubbish can be a hick up. Getting rid of massa is because Ferrari are losing a fist full of points with a driver that has not performed in years.
jB on the other hand is not losing a fist full of points, but his last two races haven't been good enough.
 
Just watched qually. Didn't see P3 either so didn't know about the Maldonaldo incident either.

Fantastic session, especially ramped up during Q3, the top group were so close which is great. A surprising result to see MS going around quickest and a bit of a shame he has the penalty as it would have been great to see him defending.

Shame for JB, something isn't working for him at the moment.
 
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