Monaco Grand Prix 2012, Monte Carlo - Race 6/20

[drunkenmaster]

Didn't the 2009 cars have a lot less downforce than the 2008 cars all round though?

Either way, its always been the same with Button. In a car setup right for him he is brilliant, but he seriously struggles if things aren't 100% right. Clearly the McLaren at the moment isn't 100% right for him.

hehe, clarification, in the best car on the grid by a country mile, and the car working 100%, he was unmatched by a oldie who was driving for money, not wins. When he doesn't have the best car, he's left behind, when he's in the same car as a faster driver, he loses consistently.


Brilliant..... he can't pass, he's not very fast, he's not particularly good defensively. he can win when the car is faster AND for one reason or another his team mate is crippled, with Rubens, he didn't care, with Lewis, almost always an absurd penalty, a crash, or a failure. The number of times Button has genuinely outpaced Hamilton is, painfully low. Hamilton crashing out while normally having better pace at the time and actually trying to move forwards rather than cruise around, doesn't mean Button is driving better at all.

He's an okay driver, better than average(just), but has never shown a single hint of brilliance. If he had, he could even sometimes beat Hamilton driver to driver, without someone else knocking Hamilton off.

You could basically put any two drivers in the top 8 teams into a car like the Brawn or the last two years RBR and one of them would win, thats all that happened to Button.

 

[FrankJH]

Exactly.

Its not random, its just much much closer.

Last year a McLaren driver making a mistake (or the team making one) meant they might loose a space to a Ferrari. This year the same mistake means they loose a space to a Ferrari, a Merc, a Lotus, and possibly a Sauber and a Williams.

The differences in the tyres and other things have always been there, but they have been hidden behind fundamental differences in the base performance of the cars. Drawing the performance of the cars together means other factors start to show through as providing the difference.

It isnt just that at all

What is frustrating though is that in the same weather conditions with same amounts of fuel in the same weekend / same track , the same car can go from being fastest to being in the midpack (this has happened twice to JB in the last two races, and Im sure to other drivers also)

I would accept that one or two cars might find a better setup in the intervening time and go faster - no problem at all - 1/2 the grid though? Sorry thats just making the racing a complete lottery and its complete BS)

(ignoring p2 in Monaco because of the rain, even p3 JB was 3 /10's off pole - yet a couple of hours later he was 8/10s off + and out in q2)

He also had two relatively clear runs from traffic, so it wasnt even that.

It ISNT just that the teams are a lot closer (even though Im not questioning that, as they obviously are) there is something else much more deep than that which at the moment appears to be a random element of some kind imo

Which McLaren driver has 63 points? clue it's not Jenson, but if you want to cherry pick we can carry on.

Which McLaren driver is behind Kimi in the standings, clue it's not Lewis

Which McLaren driver has scored 2 points in the last 3 races, clue it's not Lewis.

Which McLaren driver lost his pole and probably win due to a team error, yet started from the back and still outscored the other driver, clue it's not Jenson.

and yet JB is doing so badly and yet he is still only (about) 1 race win away from leading the championship

The lotus (as stated by a load of other people here) is a very good car , and possibly better than the McLaren as a package so that isnt really a negative (especially given that the engine has won three races this season already)

Thats just opinion, you have no way at all of KNOWING whether Lewis would have won ( he was on pole 1 or 2 other times, yet didnt win either of those either, so more likely he wouldnt have won than would have)

Stop being so one sided

 

[robbiemc]

Apologies if this has been discussed (I couldn't see), but did no one here pick up on Simons (sky1) massive faux-pas on the race pre-coverage?
He pointed at the mountains and mentioned how tight and dangerous the roads were 'Something Princess Grace knows all about' he said.
At the time I though 'What? that's a bit dodgy' and sure enough he apologised after the next break.
I mean, honestly. What a retarded statement and completely unprofessional and disrespectful.

 

[therealnerd2]

Apologies if this has been discussed (I couldn't see), but did no one here pick up on Simons (sky1) massive faux-pas on the race pre-coverage?
He pointed at the mountains and mentioned how tight and dangerous the roads were 'Something Princess Grace knows all about' he said.
At the time I though 'What? that's a bit dodgy' and sure enough he apologised after the next break.
I mean, honestly. What a retarded statement and completely unprofessional and disrespectful.

I heard the apology but missed what he did. What a fail...! Are the scripts not checked beforehand?

 

[Nismo]

I heard the apology but missed what he did. What a fail...! Are the scripts not checked beforehand?

I doubt that was scripted, more like an off-the cuff comment that he thought would be funny.

Very ill-advised, get rid and get Jeff Stelling in

 

[Kimi]

This was on the Schumachers facebook page

"1. Australia - Gearbox failure -> 5th position at least possible = 10 points.
2. Malaysia - Grosjean spun -> by his pace 5th position again at least possible = 10 points
3. China - wheel nut failure -> 2nd place at least possible = 18 points
4. Bahrain - DRS failiure in qualifying -> his pace at the race was good enough for 5th place = 10 points
5. Spain - Senna crash - easily could end at 5th place = 10 points
6. Monaco - Fuel pressure - without penalty he would win the race = 25 points. From 6th place without Grosjean and car failure his pace and strategy was enough for a podium 3rd place = 15 points."

He would be right up there in the championship standings! such a shame, i really hope he gets some good luck now

 

[arknor]

schumacher doesnt have an official facebook page so dont go thinking its him writing that.

he should have been fighting with vettel at monaco though

 

[Mr Men]

This was on the Schumachers facebook page

"1. Australia - Gearbox failure -> 5th position at least possible = 10 points.
2. Malaysia - Grosjean spun -> by his pace 5th position again at least possible = 10 points
3. China - wheel nut failure -> 2nd place at least possible = 18 points
4. Bahrain - DRS failiure in qualifying -> his pace at the race was good enough for 5th place = 10 points
5. Spain - Senna crash - easily could end at 5th place = 10 points
6. Monaco - Fuel pressure - without penalty he would win the race = 25 points. From 6th place without Grosjean and car failure his pace and strategy was enough for a podium 3rd place = 15 points."

He would be right up there in the championship standings! such a shame, i really hope he gets some good luck now

Bet it was Skeeter that posted that on his FB page

 

[schumi84]

With the Schumacher situation I almost feel as if karma has come back to really bite him in the ****, especially this season as Rosberg has shown what the car is capable of when there are no hiccups.

I still believe he will get at least a few good results this season and would love him to stay for at least next season as well. The current driver market situation is definitely hinging on what happens to him next year, and am eagerly anticipating who goes where .

 

[Tenzo]

Button needs to concentrate on setup and quali.

Whitman disagrees with him.

Only bundle so far has scratched the surface and has actually said what I think is happening.

Out of interest, what did Bundle say?

 

[arknor]

Out of interest, what did Bundle say?

probably something not relevant to modern f1 as usual

 

[Kimi]

schumacher doesnt have an official facebook page so dont go thinking its him writing that.

he should have been fighting with vettel at monaco though

Yea its just a fan page


Its unbelievable what Schumi has gone through this year, i cant believe it, ive had champagne on ice since 2006 ready to celebrate his next win, hopefully i get to crack it open for Canada

 

[Irish_Tom]

Taking about Button

The thing is Frank; in Monaco, despite being faster in P2 than he was in Quali, all of his fastest times were fairly consistent — just not consistently fast enough to challenge for pole position.

It's not that he's magically going backwards during qualifying, it's that those above him seem to have some pace in reserve.

Monaco:

P1: 1:17.190 (assume this is a high fuel load or update test)
P2: 1:15.746 (when he was fastest but it rained)
P3: 1:15.471 (0.312 seconds off pole in 6th)
Qualifying: 1:15.536 (1.235 seconds off pole in 13th)

His fastest time in practice was only 0.065 seconds quicker than his fastest qualifying lap which would have only moved him up to 12th.

Being a second off the pace of pole, it's no surprise he is going out in Q2.

Spain is slightly different:

P1: 1:24.996 (0.566 seconds off pole)
P2: 1:23.399 (0.164 seconds faster than 2nd)
P3: 1:23.909 (0.741 seconds off pole)
Qualifying: 1:22.944 (1.237 seconds off pole)

He improved on his fastest practice time by 0.455 seconds in qualifying but he was still over a second off the pace of pole.

In Spain his fastest in-race lap put him 14th and in Monaco he was 18th in the standings (although this is slightly misleading as he was stuck behind one of the slowest drivers on the grid).

It just goes to show that you can't predict qualifying results based on the three practice sessions.

What I'm trying to get at is — there isn't some scandal or conspiracy that means JB is losing out — he simply isn't fast enough.

 

[smr]

I doubt that was scripted, more like an off-the cuff comment that he thought would be funny.

Very ill-advised, get rid and get Jeff Stelling in

I watched the BBC build up instead this race, is there anywhere to watch the Sky build up ?

 

[Weebull]

What I'm trying to get at is — there isn't some scandal or conspiracy that means JB is losing out —*he simply isn't fast enough.

Bah, you beat me to it.

I think it's worth comparing what Button did at Monaco to what Schumacher did over the weekend:

Practice 2: 1:17.293
Practice 3: 1:15.893
Qualifying: 1:14.301

Or for example, Grosjean, who a lot of people tipped to qualify higher up, still managed to improve by nearly a second each session. He simply didn't improve enough to take pole.

A Williams winning is just the same as a Torro Rosso winning really

Not really though. Williams have obviously built a car capable of challenging the teams near the front. Toro Rosso haven't.

 

[Weebull]

Here's a nice example, in Q2 last year (I'm using Q2 as Q3 was messed up by Perez's crash really):

1st to 17th - 2.0 seconds
1st to 10th - 1.3 seconds

In Q2 this year:

1st to 17th - 1.9 seconds (but only 0.9 if you do 1st to 16th)
1st to 10th - 0.3 seconds

So even though I was knocking the Toro Rossos, even they aren't particularly far behind! It's simply that the field is so much closer this year.

I could probably spend all night doing sad, pointless statistical deviation exercises here, but I'm going to stop whilst I still have a chance.

 

[tigerstyle]

Apologies if this has been discussed (I couldn't see), but did no one here pick up on Simons (sky1) massive faux-pas on the race pre-coverage?
He pointed at the mountains and mentioned how tight and dangerous the roads were 'Something Princess Grace knows all about' he said.
At the time I though 'What? that's a bit dodgy' and sure enough he apologised after the next break.
I mean, honestly. What a retarded statement and completely unprofessional and disrespectful.

It's totally meaningless really, but from the Daily Fail:

'He has also been reminded of the standards expectedon Sky Sports.'

...Yeah real high you can't even spell chumps...

 

[FrankJH]

snip.

So 6 - 8 cars find additional time between P3 & Qualifying yet JB doesnt - yes to me that does sound very odd indeed

As I said originally one or two cars wouldnt be surprising but that many is pretty strange (please account for the fact the TRACK will of course be getting faster all the time, so every car should find equal amounts of time to start with before any config improvements)

 

[drunkenmaster]

It's worthless comparing practice times, though I've pointed out for some time, all this season and half of last season Button puts everything into one super fast lap in p2/p3 and often comes out first for the last fast stint they all tend to do. Almost every time you watch you get 5-6 cars all doing half a brilliant lap before being blocked, but they show their times, Button has come out 3 laps earlier, does one clear lap and it's fastest of the day but no where near fastest in each sector.

He's got good timing and get's a lot of press for being fastest in practice. But most cars are playing for race setup, car setup, quali setup, Button is going out to grab a headline and can't set up his car for the race, coincidence, no.

But again practice times vs quali mean nothing, its practice. The best drivers are testing to set up the car in different situations, they want to know how much bias/wing settings/brake settings at full, half, light fuel and then qualifying fuel, they want to find a setup where in car changes can cover high and low fuel as best as possible. Other than button and the slower cars wanting to get a headline, no one is interested in the best possible lap in practice, so everyone else speeds up for qualifying.

Said for weeks, there's nothing wrong with Button's car, nothing wrong with him, no bad form, no bad luck, he's as slow as last year, with a closer field, so 3 cars back is now 8 cars back. Hamilton is driving the balls off his car, and Button isn't, same as every year.

Mclaren will still have races their car is simply best suited and you'll get them ahead of everyone, and races where the car is poor and Hamilton will end up 5th but Button will be 10th... slow driver in being as slow as always shocker

 

[Irish_Tom]

So 6 - 8 cars find additional time between P3 & Qualifying yet JB doesnt - yes to me that does sound very odd indeed.

As I said originally one or two cars wouldnt be surprising but that many is pretty strange (please account for the fact the TRACK will of course be getting faster all the time, so every car should find equal amounts of time to start with before any config improvements)

No it doesn't, for the reasons Weebull and DM have posted:

• You can't rely on practice times
• The pack is closer this season
• JB is maintaining a consistent pace, it's just slower than those around him