Motorsport Off Topic Thread

It's still aero where they will be furthest behind, so they'll still be last (or perhaps mixing it with Haas if Ferrari have stolen all of Haas's windtunnel time). Hopefully they'll be much closer though.
 
I was going to ask if the Mercedes deal would see a Mercedes driver in there (its how Bianchi got the seat). Great to see it may happen.
 
No engine in the world will make up for what's going to be very under developed aero. They may join Sauber in scrapping for last place, but I don't think they are going to be jumping up to STR/FI etc.
 
I was reading Mansell's mumblings on the bbc about him quitting mclaren in 95, the first year they had Merc engines.

"as they were starting a new engine partnership with Mercedes, which lasted until 2014 and brought the team three drivers' titles and one constructors' championship"

Almost 20 years and they managed one constructors title 98 and only 3 drivers titles. Would have been two if MS didn't break a leg. What a woeful stat with a great engine builder let alone Honda.
 
hopefully resolved with a new design for 2016 (well, you can only hope).
Of course they will redesign, to even suggest, or surmise otherwise, would be just plain silly. Honda will have learned a lot this year, surely more than any other team. They will come back with a better, stronger, quicker package, but so will everyone else, It just depends if their strides are that much bigger than the rest, to make enough of a difference.

IMO :)

Jay
 
The actual design sounds brilliant though, the compressor should be able to rotate at 130,000 revs, more than any other team's... but because of it's situe it's not able to achieve that without overheating and frying everything, with the size zero back end hindering reliability. As a result of that McLaren have had to run the power down, and much less HP than their rivals, which in turn effects the other energy recovery systems. Apparantly McLaren have two PUs in development, a modification of 2015s to fit within the size zero package at increased power and reliability as well as a substitute engine setup which can be used by the homologation date in Feb if the existing concept can't be improved enough, but that would require a chassis rethink.

Still, next year's car will be for the first time 100 percent Prodromous', surely next year is going to be at least a bit better than this year!

edit - full version in Duke's link above ^ :)
 
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Another good write up about the Honda turbo issue - http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/exclusive-honda-misery-set-to-continue-into-2016/ - hopefully resolved with a new design for 2016 (well, you can only hope).

This article is completely nonsense, like literally. If the compressor could run faster it would create more heat and that heat could be captured. It sounds like the idiot directly thinks the heat capture is from hot running parts of the compressor and not talking about using the hot exhaust to spin the turbine with the mgu-h harvesting kinetic energy as with the mgu-k. He has a fundamental misunderstanding of what he's talking about.

Also Arai himself has directly said that Honda are now working on a new layout which wasn't possible to change with the few tokens they have left. A new compressor design would not require a full layout change. Arai has already basically said the entire turbo and mgu-h is being completely changed relative to this year so the idea they are just making a new compressor to make the current layout work is dead before it starts.

Anyone, literally anyone can chase after being an F1 reporter and the constant barrage of incorrect information on more technical engines is really proving who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. When it's a case of like Ted going "that piece of aero is curvier that it used to be... it much be better" isn't cutting it anymore, when they talk crap about the engine they get shown up for talking rubbish.

The actual design sounds brilliant though, the compressor should be able to rotate at 130,000 revs, more than any other team's... but because of it's situe it's not able to achieve that without overheating and frying everything, with the size zero back end hindering reliability. As a result of that McLaren have had to run the power down, and much less HP than their rivals, which in turn effects the other energy recovery systems. Apparantly McLaren have two PUs in development, a modification of 2015s to fit within the size zero package at increased power and reliability as well as a substitute engine setup which can be used by the homologation date in Feb if the existing concept can't be improved enough, but that would require a chassis rethink.

Sorry but getting excited over a design that sounds brilliant, it doesn't. More than any other teams... it's a tiny compressor. bigger compressor = run smaller for same amount of air pushed, that isn't complicated. Efficiency of any rotational system will be worse at 130k than at 100k, than at 50k. The lower you can run the better in almost every situation you can possibly think of.

Likewise these systems, it's about the balance. Let's say for max engine power they need the compressor running at 100k, the turbine/mgu-h/compressor are designed so the exhaust from the engine at that power can rev that system up to 130k rpm, that means the mgu-h can constantly harvest energy out of the system the second it's above 100k rpm which will be almost all time under power. That is going to provide the air required to the engine and huge amount of harvesting power. If the engine needs 120k rpm for the power it needs you both won't be able to harvest as hard(only drawing out the power from 130k to 120k, but also it will take longer for the engine to hit 120k rpm than 100k and/or it will take more power from the battery to keep it spun up at those higher rpm. So either you use more power in the corners to spin up the compressor or it's 3 seconds into a straight instead of 1 before you can start harvesting.

Now if you have a system where by the engine needs the compressor running at 130k rpm to feed it... and you can't hit 130k rpm, you're screwed, and IF and when you hit 130k rpm, you still need that speed so you can't easily harvest power from it.

There is nothing special about something spinning at 130k rpm, it's not wanted by a good balanced system. Higher rpm = more power required to spin it = more power from battery to get it that high, less efficiency and less headroom for harvesting when up to speed as well.

The other engines aren't 'not capable' of 130k rpm, no one wants to be anywhere near it because it's not practical, efficient or good for reliability. It's an entirely poor design choice to want a turbo that needs to run that fast to power the engine. There is also someone, possibly scarbs(the real scarbs uses that name on several forums), who is now saying the compressor isn't axial just a tiny, semi useless radial compressor.

Honda will not come next year with a new version of the current layout. Arai has literally confirmed on several occasions now that this years engine was down the wrong path, it didn't do what they thought it would, next years engine is a different layout.
 
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This article is completely nonsense, like literally. If the compressor could run faster it would create more heat and that heat could be captured. It sounds like the idiot directly thinks the heat capture is from hot running parts of the compressor and not talking about using the hot exhaust to spin the turbine with the mgu-h harvesting kinetic energy as with the mgu-k. He has a fundamental misunderstanding of what he's talking about.

<massive wall of text>

LOL. Mark Hughes is not an idiot.

Read it again. He's using power to refer to the kinetic output of the ICE, and heat to refer to the electrical output of the MGU-H.
 
LOL. Mark Hughes is not an idiot.

Read it again. He's using power to refer to the kinetic output of the ICE, and heat to refer to the electrical output of the MGU-H.

heat isn't the electrical output of the MGU-H and that isn't what he was saying either. He's saying the compressor needs to be running faster to create more heat for the mgu-h to harvest... this is completely inaccurate.

Regardless of it he knows what he's talking about the article is utter tripe. Again Arai himself has gone on record as saying they are redoing the layout of the engine completely, this 100% points to them not making a better version of what they currently have. They've admitted defeat on the current engine design and moving on, this is known, Honda have admitted this and Hughes is out there now saying "they are going to stick with this engine and totally make a better version of this compressor".

ALmost everything he says is dumb and he even confirms it himself, he says the best step to reducing the rear size was making the smallest compressor possible... then straight away says they couldn't move the compressor to the front as Merc did. Merc have a tight rear end and the, what is that, right, biggest compressor on the grid by having it at the front. The first step to a tight rear end is getting the furthest back part of the engine, which is necessarily the turbine(because the exhaust must come out of it) as close to the rear of the engine block as possible. Split turbo achieves this, not miniaturisation of the compressor as shown by Mercedes.

he also continually claims that Mercedes and the others haven't yet achieved 130k rpm on their compressors as if it's the end goal. 130k rpm is easy, it's also inefficient and worthless. Shafts, seals, friction, heat and bearings are all problems, the higher the rpm the less reliability you will achieve. Shock horror, the compromise of being unable to achieve a full split turbo means a tiny compressor, the downside/negative/drawback/absolutely unwanted side effect is you MUST run the compressor faster to get the same boost. he's framing it as Honda chose to run a faster compressor and when they achieve it, it will be something else the others haven't been able to achieve, something 'better'. It's categorically worse, every single side effect of going faster is negative, this is very much a forced situation where Honda have no other choice and the other teams actively engineered better solutions to run slower by design.

His entire article is badly written, another(as we have had so many) pro Honda/Mclaren puff pieces. Remember that since the very start of the season everyone has assured us THIS engine design is easily the best and will be ultra competitive when it's working. We've still got idiot journalists parroting that but again, Arai himself has crapped all over that by saying this layout is in the bin, it's no longer in their plans because it does not work.

Jesus, even the ultra embarrassing "with only 35% ers power they get 60bhp instead of 160bhp output"... nope, wrong again, wrong on everything.

The mgu-k can output 160bhp, 4MJ give or take = 160bhp output for 33 seconds a lap. If you are only getting 35% of the ers power other engines are getting this means you can run at 160bhp for less time. None of the teams get 160bhp averaged over the whole lap, if and only if they can harvest a full 4MJ every lap can they provide 160bhp for 33 seconds of a lap(they can do more in some races, less in others, or charge for a lap and discharge almost double for one lap). Either way 35% energy recovered in no way means they can only output 60bhp, nor an average 60bhp over an entire lap. These terms are completely incorrectly used as with almost everything in the article.
 
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