Motorsport Off Topic Thread

[timmeh]

You can all laugh and joke and **** of RBR all you like, but losing Red Bull would be a very bad thing for F1 as a whole.

They need to secure an engine, otherwise F1 will have a big problem. Its already got a massive problem in operating in a structure that allows manufacturers to force someone they think might beat them to leave the sport.

F1 is broken. RBR leaving will only break it more. This is bad news if you are a fan of F1.

It is indeed bad for F1 but it is completely Red Bull's fault, they think they can get their own way because they had 4 years of success. Trying to blame anyone other than Red Bull is laughable.

Why should Merc or Ferrari be expected to give Red Bull engines? Even if they weren't doing it for the reasons you say, the way Red Bull have treated Renault over their entire partnership is a good enough reason to avoid them.

 

[deuse]

RB won't\can't leave till 2020. Unless they want to pay a few $100 mil to Bernie. And that will never happen.

Rb was the ones who vetoed the cost cutting\Cap when the was winning.
A bit like the old song "you only sing when you're winning". They will go back to Renault on their knees for a year or two.

So much for these new fancy engines

 

[Glaucus]

I hope someone buys red bull out and they then run Renault.

 

[MarcLister]

RB won't\can't leave till 2020. Unless they want to pay a few $100 mil to Bernie. And that will never happen.

I've been wondering about this. Does this mean the RB name has to stay in F1 until 2020 or the physical teams? Could RB not sell their two teams to say, just plucking a name out of a hat, Microsoft who could run one team as Microsoft F1 and the other as XBox FOne? Being silly with the names there but not sure what the deal with Bernie means and how RB are tied in.

 

[Skeeter]

Whilst that is true Skeeter it could also be argued that RBR have brought this upon themselves. They never acknowledged Renault's contribution to their era of dominance, publicly insulted Renault this season and have left it quite late in the season to start agreeing a deal for another engine supply. Perhaps they thought that calling everyone's bluff would work for them but in reality it doesn't seem to have done so.

Yes they have bought it on themselves, but there are 4 engine suppliers in F1. A team should be able to move to another supplier if they aren't happy with their current one. Instead the suppliers are in a position to say "no you can't have our engines because you might beat us" (somthing Mercedes have been very open about actually).

This is evident when you look at the other end of the grid. Manor took all of about a week to negotiate a Mercedes deal, and Ferrari will happily throw engines Sauber's way whilst they are floundering around in the teens. RBR are not unable to get an engine because of the way they treated Renault, RBR are unable to get an engine because they are a competitive team, and the others don't want competition.

Its utterly and totally wrong.

 

[Skeeter]

I've been wondering about this. Does this mean the RB name has to stay in F1 until 2020 or the physical teams? Could RB not sell their two teams to say, just plucking a name out of a hat, Microsoft who could run one team as Microsoft F1 and the other as XBox FOne? Being silly with the names there but not sure what the deal with Bernie means and how RB are tied in.

Its a completely rubbish missinterpreted statement that deuse keeps spouting as 'fact' (fancy that ).

RBR have a contract with FOM, just like all the other teams do, that runs to 2020. Terminating that contract will be as easy as just... not turning up next year. The contract doesn't force them to stay in F1, the contract is just governing their relationship with FOM until 2020 (i.e. their share of prize money, etc). It just means that if they are around in 2021 they will need to renegotiate a new contract with FOM.

Caterham had a contract with FOM that presumably ran longer than just until 2014. HRT would have had one too. But they both left. Every team has these contracts (its the crux of the issue around the 'unfair' distribution of prize money). RBR just made a point of making a big thing about how long theirs was for a while back as a public display of their commitment to F1. In reality it means nothing though.

 

[timmeh]

Contracts in F1 aren't even worth the paper they're printed on.

 

[Skeeter]

I love how deuse keeps spouting about how RBR will have to pay Bernie millions to get out of their contract, whereas one of the main points of the contract is defining how much money Bernie pays RBR!

(Not actually Bernie, its FOM, but you get the idea)

 

[drunkenmaster]

They've bought nothing on themselves, people like to look for drama so press/teams supply it. There was a 0% chance RBR wouldn't have engines for next year and even if it's Renault that doesn't mean they are crawling back.

Had they not spoken out, had they not cancelled the existing contract Renault may not have committed more resources or, well, **** or get off the pot comes to mind. Had RBR kept quiet about the issues they may be locked into a contract with Renault still undecided about their future past a couple of years from now, may have never decided to push forward with serious engine improvements. Maybe directly as a result of being 'insulted' and seemingly left out they have somewhat committed to buy Lotus and significantly improve their engine via more investment. This is all a HUGE win for RBR, but people couldn't bring themselves to recognise it.

If RBR start 2016 with Renault engines it will almost certainly be stronger engines as a direct result of RBR threatening to leave Renault.

But apparently everyone just likes putting the boot in so can't see that regardless of whose engines they end up with(outside of Honda) their situation is improved. If they get Merc/Ferrari engines, huge improvement, if they forced Renault's hand into improving their engine, still a win.

 

[deuse]

I've been wondering about this. Does this mean the RB name has to stay in F1 until 2020 or the physical teams? Could RB not sell their two teams to say, just plucking a name out of a hat, Microsoft who could run one team as Microsoft F1 and the other as XBox FOne? Being silly with the names there but not sure what the deal with Bernie means and how RB are tied in.

"The bi-lateral agreements signed in 2012 by the top teams with F1 Management ties them into the sport until 2020. It is on the basis of these bi-lateral agreements that those team receive the so-called CCB payments, in addition to their entitlements under the F1 prize money fund. Ferrari gets just under $100m a year as a CCB payment and Red Bull receives $75m a year."

"These teams also received sign-on payments totalling $180m at the time of the bi-lateral agreements in 2012 and are “committed to participate in the F1 World Championship until 31 December 2020,” according to official documents"

"As their CCB entitlement is $75m a year, one would expect at the minimum that the severance payment due to F1 Management and CVC would be at least $350m."

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/...red-bull-is-committed-to-f1-to-december-2020/

I see by repost Skeeter is getting upset.............AGAIN

 

[MarcLister]

Yes they have bought it on themselves, but there are 4 engine suppliers in F1. A team should be able to move to another supplier if they aren't happy with their current one. Instead the suppliers are in a position to say "no you can't have our engines because you might beat us" (somthing Mercedes have been very open about actually).

This is evident when you look at the other end of the grid. Manor took all of about a week to negotiate a Mercedes deal, and Ferrari will happily throw engines Sauber's way whilst they are floundering around in the teens. RBR are not unable to get an engine because of the way they treated Renault, RBR are unable to get an engine because they are a competitive team, and the others don't want competition.

Its utterly and totally wrong.

Mercedes have been open about not wanting to be beaten and then have the Daimler Mercedes board wonder why are we paying all this money for a team when someone else uses our engines and beats us. Let's just be a supplier again.

However Ferrari have said they'd give RB some engines. Do RB really have the right to demand 2016 same spec engines this late in the game? Why should Ferrari massively change its procedures just to accomodate the F1 equivalent of a baby having a tantrum?

You make it sound that any team in F1 can say to one of the 4 engine suppliers, "We want your engines" and the supplier has to oblige. Mercedes and Ferrari already have their hands full and are using the smaller teams to gain favours such as granting drives to the supplying team's young drivers for evaluation with a view to promoting them to the senior team.

RB's behaviour with Renault has come to bite them on their backside and few teams seem willing to come to their aid. I'm not really surprised.

Whilst F1 is broken could it not be argued that RB have gambled that the rest of the grid wouldn't want F1 to be even more damaged and so bend over backwards to keep RB in the game? What's more pathetic, the fact that F1 is broken or that RB were gambling on breaking it even more against the other teams keeping them happy?

 

[timmeh]

They've bought nothing on themselves, people like to look for drama so press/teams supply it. There was a 0% chance RBR wouldn't have engines for next year and even if it's Renault that doesn't mean they are crawling back.

Had they not spoken out, had they not cancelled the existing contract Renault may not have committed more resources or, well, **** or get off the pot comes to mind. Had RBR kept quiet about the issues they may be locked into a contract with Renault still undecided about their future past a couple of years from now, may have never decided to push forward with serious engine improvements. Maybe directly as a result of being 'insulted' and seemingly left out they have somewhat committed to buy Lotus and significantly improve their engine via more investment. This is all a HUGE win for RBR, but people couldn't bring themselves to recognise it.

If RBR start 2016 with Renault engines it will almost certainly be stronger engines as a direct result of RBR threatening to leave Renault.

But apparently everyone just likes putting the boot in so can't see that regardless of whose engines they end up with(outside of Honda) their situation is improved. If they get Merc/Ferrari engines, huge improvement, if they forced Renault's hand into improving their engine, still a win.

They have completely brought it on themselves. The position they find themselves in (the sour relationship with Renault and hunting for a new engine) is 100% their own doing.

Red Bull threatening to leave Renault will have absolutely zero effect on the 2016 engine. Renault weren't sitting around thinking all was peachy until Red Bull said they were leaving then thought "Oh we'd better make a better engine so the team that has treated us quite poorly for the past few years don't leave us".

 

[drunkenmaster]

I love how deuse keeps spouting about how RBR will have to pay Bernie millions to get out of their contract, whereas one of the main points of the contract is defining how much money Bernie pays RBR!

(Not actually Bernie, its FOM, but you get the idea)

That doesn't matter in the slightest, what a contract is for and what the punishments for breaking it aren't in any way related. Just because the contract pays them yearly for their involvement in F1 doesn't mean the clauses are the same, as in money from Bernie to RBR. Breaking contracts has repercussions.

IN effect Bernie promised to give them say 50mil a year if and only if they stay till 2020. If they stop in 2016.... then RBR have already been paid for multiple years(4 iirc) based on the intention for them to be around in 2020 and Bernie/FIA/FOM/whoever the hell it is, make deals with tracks around the world based on who is in the sport. If RBR aren't in it and there are 2-4 cars less then the places holding GP's aren't getting what they paid for.

It's been stated, believably, that RBR would be liable for several hundred million in clauses. At the very least I would expect if RBR don't carry out the terms of the contract they would owe Bernie back what they've been paid for the contract and I would be further surprised if there weren't huge financial disincentives to add on top of that.

 

[drunkenmaster]

They have completely brought it on themselves. The position they find themselves in (the sour relationship with Renault and hunting for a new engine) is 100% their own doing.

Red Bull threatening to leave Renault will have absolutely zero effect on the 2016 engine. Renault weren't sitting around thinking all was peachy until Red Bull said they were leaving then thought "Oh we'd better make a better engine so the team that has treated us quite poorly for the past few years don't leave us".

Well done, except Renault quite exactly did do that, apart from that, good analysis.

Renault are NOT a works team, exactly because RBR were leaving Renault is what is leading Renault to deciding to either leave F1 or buy a team, in this case Lotus. When you buy a works team you are making a commitment and increasing the budget massively, there is literally no reason to do this without significantly increasing the engine development budget.

RBR leaving made Renault choose to become a full works team, buying Lotus and committing more resources to the 2016 engine.

In general people used the "brought this on themselves" to be negative, literally they have, but what they brought on themselves is a better engine for next year.

Of course Renault could have gone the other way in which case for the many reasons highlighted by people, financial penalties, being bad for F1, they absolutely would have 100% been given a Ferrari or Merc engine.

For everything that can be levelled at Honda, under commitment isn't one of them. Renault is the one team out of the 4 manufacturers that wasn't significantly increasing development budget and had by a huge margin the smallest development budget precisely because they didn't know if they were going to continue in F1 or not. This was also one of the reasons RBR needed a decision from Renault either way and in particular this year. Imagine of Renault announced next year they were leaving F1, that would mean a new engine for RBR in a new aero regulation year. RBR forced the issue for 2016, improved Renault or new Ferrari/Merc engine, who cares, 2016 to adjust to new engine, 2017 they can go big for the new regulations. Integrating a new engine in 2017 would have been a far harder task. RBR have done exactly what was needed this year, they had a crap engine, Renault weren't acting to fix problems or commit their future to F1, RBR forced their hand, the outcome was going to be favourable for RBR which ever way it went.

 

[MarcLister]

Red Bull threatening to leave Renault will have absolutely zero effect on the 2016 engine. Renault weren't sitting around thinking all was peachy until Red Bull said they were leaving then thought "Oh we'd better make a better engine so the team that has treated us quite poorly for the past few years don't leave us".

Totally agree. Renault won't suddenly have the best engines in F1 next year and be able to thank the pressure from Red Bull for helping them improve their engines.

 

[timmeh]

Well done, except Renault quite exactly did do that, apart from that, good analysis.

Renault are NOT a works team, exactly because RBR were leaving Renault is what is leading Renault to deciding to either leave F1 or buy a team, in this case Lotus. When you buy a works team you are making a commitment and increasing the budget massively, there is literally no reason to do this without significantly increasing the engine development budget.

RBR leaving made Renault choose to become a full works team, buying Lotus and committing more resources to the 2016 engine.

In general people used the "brought this on themselves" to be negative, literally they have, but what they brought on themselves is a better engine for next year.

Of course Renault could have gone the other way in which case for the many reasons highlighted by people, financial penalties, being bad for F1, they absolutely would have 100% been given a Ferrari or Merc engine.

For everything that can be levelled at Honda, under commitment isn't one of them. Renault is the one team out of the 4 manufacturers that wasn't significantly increasing development budget and had by a huge margin the smallest development budget precisely because they didn't know if they were going to continue in F1 or not. This was also one of the reasons RBR needed a decision from Renault either way and in particular this year. Imagine of Renault announced next year they were leaving F1, that would mean a new engine for RBR in a new aero regulation year. RBR forced the issue for 2016, improved Renault or new Ferrari/Merc engine, who cares, 2016 to adjust to new engine, 2017 they can go big for the new regulations. Integrating a new engine in 2017 would have been a far harder task. RBR have done exactly what was needed this year, they had a crap engine, Renault weren't acting to fix problems or commit their future to F1, RBR forced their hand, the outcome was going to be favourable for RBR which ever way it went.

Renault were considering leaving Red Bull long before Red Bull's toys ever left the pram, it was around the time that Red Bull started publicly criticising them. You think that in the space of ~1 month that Renault have done all the leg work to get a works team up n running? I clearly don't know as much as you about setting up an F1 team but I'd say that your timescales don't quite add up.

 

[JRS]

Yes they have bought it on themselves, but there are 4 engine suppliers in F1. A team should be able to move to another supplier if they aren't happy with their current one. Instead the suppliers are in a position to say "no you can't have our engines because you might beat us" (somthing Mercedes have been very open about actually).

Query for clarification:

Are you saying that an engine manufacturer should effectively be forced to sell engines to RBR?

 

[Slam62]

Query for clarification:

Are you saying that an engine manufacturer should effectively be forced to sell engines to RBR?

Bernie's trying

 

[this_is_gav]

Query for clarification:

Are you saying that an engine manufacturer should effectively be forced to sell engines to RBR?

While the answer ought to be obvious, it's a hard one. "Yes" for the sake of the series. "No" for those protecting their own interests to the potential detriment of a sport they need to thrive now as much as ever.



As much as some hate them (undeservedly in my opinion), Red Bull need a strong supplier as much as F1 needs Red Bull. If they don't get it, they'll leave, taking one of the best teams, the most entertaining team and four of the best and most promising drivers with them (as well as a huge driver development programme). It will mean a metronomic loss of talent from motorsport and the end of a career for probably dozens of up and coming drivers and engineers. Imagine you're on the end of that - we've got one member here who you know who it would affect - it's livelihoods too remember, and hundreds of them. Even Deuse couldn't argue there's any good in it.

On the flipside why would either Ferrari or Mercedes supply one of their most dangerous rivals with equal equipment? Neither need the money, no matter how much Red Bull are willing to throw at them, and both have teams capable (or very nearly capable) of challenging for the title. Their only concern is how much F1 would suffer the loss of Red Bull should they carry out their threat to leave. If we only lose Red Bull and Toro Rosso and gain Haas, F1 would be worse off for it (losing a works team, a development team and gaining a donkey), but would it continue to line purses in the long run, as that's the only reason Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda are in it?

It's still a game of poker. I don't think Red Bull want to leave, but equally I think they will if there's no hope of them winning in 2017, and if 2016 is merely a year of negotiating then it may well be just a season of prolonging the tedious sniping. While Red Bull appear to be negotiating with Renault, Bernie appears to be negotiating with Mercedes, but there's an increasingly good chance we'll be short of bulls in 2016.

I think it all goes back to when Red Bull dumped their Ferrari contract on Toro Rosso to take Renault engines for themselves. Ferrari don't forget quickly and it appears to have come back to bite them.

It's sad that F1 has become such a manufacturer-based sport, but they're the only ones who can produce the goods at such extravagant levels. Privateers will never win again and we're at the mercy of four (of which only two are any good currently) from here on in. Frankly if we lose one of Mercedes of Ferrari F1 will die painfully and quickly.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Renault were considering leaving Red Bull long before Red Bull's toys ever left the pram, it was around the time that Red Bull started publicly criticising them. You think that in the space of ~1 month that Renault have done all the leg work to get a works team up n running? I clearly don't know as much as you about setting up an F1 team but I'd say that your timescales don't quite add up.

Where are you getting a 1 month time scale from exactly? RBR have been setting up 'leaving' Renault for a year or more. It was when RBR started criticising that Renault started to think about their future in F1. This saga from both sides has been going on since before the start of this season.