Motorsport Off Topic Thread

Yes but they wouldn't have been able to sign a contract for 2016 with a new supplier until after they terminated the Renault contract. They aren't Sauber :p

They must have had confidence in getting a Mercedes or Ferrari contract, otherwise senior management wouldn't have approved them to serve notice on the Renault contract. Both the Mercedes and Ferrari f1 teams were publicly saying they would be happy to supply engines. It was only when the discussions went further upstairs to the parent companies that the brakes were applied.

Basically what I'm saying is that I think its highly doubtful that RBR simply cancelled their Renault contract with no plan in place, and then waltzed into the market place arrogantly expecting other people to hand them an engine.
 
I may not like it but I can totally understand why Ferrari and Mercedes do not want nor should be made to supply an engine. Of course they are scared of Red Bull and Newey getting their hands on anything like parity. History has shown often enough that Newey would build a better car than them.

If Mercedes gave them an engine deal for next year, then you can bet they would be facing Alonso at Red Bull, paired with Neweys unlimited bag of tricks they could well end up getting beat by the customer team. Yeah that's good for the fans but it's not that long ago Mercedes were questioning the value of F1 and the budget was propped up by the Mclaren payments. F1 has always been full of self interest, they don't care about the show until they are 6th. They will shed some crocodile tears when Red BUll pulls out then hire the best in the team between them.

If I was at Ferrari and Merc, with Red Bulls vocal ****ging of Renault I'd happily watch them pull out, hire Daniel Ric and members of the team that would benefit me.
 
dannyjo22 said:
I may not like it but I can totally understand why Ferrari and Mercedes do not want nor should be made to supply an engine. Of course they are scared of Red Bull and Newey getting their hands on anything like parity. History has shown often enough that Newey would build a better car than them.

If Mercedes gave them an engine deal for next year, then you can bet they would be facing Alonso at Red Bull, paired with Neweys unlimited bag of tricks they could well end up getting beat by the customer team. Yeah that's good for the fans but it's not that long ago Mercedes were questioning the value of F1 and the budget was propped up by the Mclaren payments. F1 has always been full of self interest, they don't care about the show until they are 6th. They will shed some crocodile tears when Red BUll pulls out then hire the best in the team between them.

If I was at Ferrari and Merc, with Red Bulls vocal ****ging of Renault I'd happily watch them pull out, hire Daniel Ric and members of the team that would benefit me.
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Yep, that all makes sence.

But it does make Mercedes and Ferrari look rather 2 faced when you look back and see them both previously going "yeah, sure, we will provide RBR with engines, we love a bit of competition".
 
Skeeter said:
But it does make Mercedes and Ferrari look rather 2 faced when you look back and see them both previously going "yeah, sure, we will provide RBR with engines, we love a bit of competition".
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I would guess the racers in the team would like the challenge but the people that pay the bills have said "**** that!" :D I think an non F1 mercedes director see's no real benefit to doing anything other than domination.
 
Skeeter said:
Yep, that all makes sence.

But it does make Mercedes and Ferrari look rather 2 faced when you look back and see them both previously going "yeah, sure, we will provide RBR with engines, we love a bit of competition".
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Talk is cheap though and I'm forced to question exactly what was said or agreed between the teams.

Red Bull seem to be convinced that they had a fairly solid agreement with one or t'other of Mercedes and Ferrari and that they've "reneged" on this "deal" but frankly I doubt this very much.

I think RB have assumed far too much without any formal agreement in place and have jumped ship from Renault far too prematurely. Of course it's all speculation as we don't know the details but just look at it from Mercedes and Ferrari's perspective.

Before 2014, we had engine stability. The engines were all pretty much on a par and it was aero that dictated overall performance. In this enviroment, RB ruled as they had by far the best aero. So if they have the same power as Mercedes and Ferrari, it's perfectly logical to assume that they'll once again outperform them on the aero side and thus beat them fairly comfortably. Why on earth would either provide an engine to RB in such circumstances? It makes no sense whatsoever and anyone at RB who assumed otherwise was just kidding themselves.
 
I hope Red Bull go for the Honda engine (no laughing at the back). Having the top two non-works teams working together with Honda on a great package would benefit them both.
 
To me it felt like Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team and Scuderia Ferrari were cool with it, but then once the discussions went upstairs to the parent comapines (Daimler Benz and Ferrari SpA) they blocked it.

As dannyjo22 said, the racers want to race, but the corporate suits are only interested in winning.
 
Skeeter said:
To me it felt like Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team and Scuderia Ferrari were cool with it, but then once the discussions went upstairs to the parent comapines (Daimler Benz and Ferrari SpA) they blocked it.

As dannyjo22 said, the racers want to race, but the corporate suits are only interested in winning.
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Makes perfect sense. The point is that RB should have realised this and that any tacit agreement with the team bosses was meaningless until signed off by the company boards.

RB assumed way too much and ditched Renault far too early. No one is to blame but them and the constant moaning about how unfair it is and how everyone else is at fault is becoming tiresome.
 
I still stand by my view that they must have been confident of getting an engine before terminating the Renault deal. Ending that contract early across both teams would have required approval from high up as I expect it came with some buy out penalties that won't have been pocket change. That's not something you approve if all you've got to go on is a casual chat with Toto over lunch.

The fact Ferrari are happy to supply STR but not RBR shows that actually it is pretty unfair. RBR can't get an engine because they are good, not because they are arrogant or assumed too much.
 
I think it's mostly that but I also thing there's a bit of 'They treated Renault like ****. When they were winning it was in spite of the engine. When they're not winning it's because of the engine. I can't imagine they'd change their tune very much if, as unlikely as it seems, any engine they did get wasn't up to scratch or kept failing on them.

I really, really want Mateschitz to have to go back to Renault and stand in front of them like a petulant and very sorry schoolboy and ask them very nicely for an engine to go racing next year. And, as is likely, pay more for it than they have previously as the pseudo works Renault team.
 
They have paid £0 for the Renault engines for quite a few years. It was part of the Infiniti title sponsorship deal (which also ends at the end of this year).
 
Skeeter said:
The fact Ferrari are happy to supply STR but not RBR shows that actually it is pretty unfair. RBR can't get an engine because they are good, not because they are arrogant or assumed too much.
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Oh I don't dispute that the primary reason neither Mercedes nor Ferrari will supply engines is because of the potential for them to be beaten by a customer team.

What I can't agree with is that this is in any way "unfair" or unexpected. I see no reason why either team should potentially compromise their ability to win races or championships because of some notion of "good sportsmanship".

Another issue which I believe still grates with Mercedes and Ferrari is that Renault were allowed to make unilateral changes to their engine back in 2008 in the name of "performance equalisation". They believe this allowed them to draw level on engine performance and then Newey's superior aero lead to the four years of total dominance that followed shortly afterward.

Why on earth would they want the same thing to happen again?
 
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