Motorsport Off Topic Thread
- Thread starter Shimmy
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Yeah, just look at all the winners of the feeder series who have got seats in F1... oh no wait.
Money > Talent in over half the grid, easy.
Lotus are not a decent mid-field team.
You wish 1/5th of the F1 grid would just quit? Sounds like an intelligent suggestion.
How else do you control spiraling costs in a world where the engine makers already wanted to charge Red Bull $60m for last years old engines?
Oh dear you really are on form today, a team with no chance of winning. Is not the same as red bulk team.
If your comment had any merit, why didn't Renault save themselfs a huge amount if money and buy one if the back teams.
Plenty of people will by midfield and up.
They did, they bought Lotus.
They were in discussions with Toro Rosso, but chose the debt riddled, worse performing Lotus team instead.
Caterham wasn't for sale for Renault to buy.
They had 2 options on the cards, and chose the cheaper, worse performing one. They passed up buying Toro Rosso. VW seemed luke warm at best about any purchase of RBR. Nobody wants to give either of them engines. Hardly the pick of the pack with a line of investors queuing up to jump on board are they?
They had 2 options on the cards, and chose the cheaper, worse performing one. They passed up buying Toro Rosso. VW seemed luke warm at best about any purchase of RBR. Nobody wants to give either of them engines. Hardly the pick of the pack with a line of investors queuing up to jump on board are they?
Caporegime
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- 18 Oct 2002
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- 33,188
They didn't pass up Toro Rosso, they talked to them, that doesn't mean they were for sale.
Lotus were running out of money and had two choices, sell or find 10's, maybe 100's of mils in funding.Debt forced Lotus's hand, TR/RBR had no reason to sell. Talking to doesn't mean a genuine offer was made nor that a genuine offer would be accepted.
Caterham may have been cheap to initially buy, they may not have. AFAIK Lotus cost basically nothing but Renault had to take over their debt, I'm not sure Caterham's debt was any lower than Lotus's. Overall I would say to get Lotus to a point of potentially winning or lets say getting podiums would be cheaper than getting Caterham to the same point. Facilities, existing chassis/car quality, size of workforce and how long it takes to sensibly build up a team.
It would take from the base Caterham car and facilities significantly longer to become competitive than starting from the current Lotus car and facilities/staff. Every year costs money and the team has a lot of research, data, equipment all of which Lotus is miles ahead in. Data that can take years to gather.
No one bought Caterham because for the debt amount they had very little chance of becoming competitive enough to get real sponsorship and pay back purchase price in any realistic time frame.
Someone would happily buy RBR or TR and for a lot more(in current condition) than Lotus because they have a stronger bargaining position and don't have to sell.
Lotus were running out of money and had two choices, sell or find 10's, maybe 100's of mils in funding.Debt forced Lotus's hand, TR/RBR had no reason to sell. Talking to doesn't mean a genuine offer was made nor that a genuine offer would be accepted.
Caterham may have been cheap to initially buy, they may not have. AFAIK Lotus cost basically nothing but Renault had to take over their debt, I'm not sure Caterham's debt was any lower than Lotus's. Overall I would say to get Lotus to a point of potentially winning or lets say getting podiums would be cheaper than getting Caterham to the same point. Facilities, existing chassis/car quality, size of workforce and how long it takes to sensibly build up a team.
It would take from the base Caterham car and facilities significantly longer to become competitive than starting from the current Lotus car and facilities/staff. Every year costs money and the team has a lot of research, data, equipment all of which Lotus is miles ahead in. Data that can take years to gather.
No one bought Caterham because for the debt amount they had very little chance of becoming competitive enough to get real sponsorship and pay back purchase price in any realistic time frame.
Someone would happily buy RBR or TR and for a lot more(in current condition) than Lotus because they have a stronger bargaining position and don't have to sell.
You are funny, as above, talked to in no way means they passed up an offer. TR aren't for sale. It's amazing how you miss every logical option in why they didn't buy TR and skip straight to the most outlandish reason, but then that reason supports your very odd claim.
Toro Rosso put themselves forward when Renault made it clear they were looking for more exposure in F1.
But anyway, that asside, wishing that a top competitor would just quit because you don't like them is a rather poorly thought out and short sighted view. They are one of the only routes for drivers to get into F1 on talent alone. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. F1 is not in a state where we should be wishing people would leave.
But anyway, that asside, wishing that a top competitor would just quit because you don't like them is a rather poorly thought out and short sighted view. They are one of the only routes for drivers to get into F1 on talent alone. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. F1 is not in a state where we should be wishing people would leave.
Not in the slightest, all posturing for rb to throw there trays about, they weren't for sale aren't fir sale now.
And no, McLaren and others have young driver program.
And them having a hissy fit every 2mins is not good for the sport. Only got them self to blame for the engine situation. It's not even drama/soap. It's just annoying moaning that gets no where, does nothing.
And no, McLaren and others have young driver program.
And them having a hissy fit every 2mins is not good for the sport. Only got them self to blame for the engine situation. It's not even drama/soap. It's just annoying moaning that gets no where, does nothing.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
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Can you find something saying they put themselves forward. I remember them saying they spoke with them. In a capitalist world everyone and everything is for sale and if someone wants to talk to you about buying you talk to them, they might have been willing to massively overpay and it would be worth selling.
Taking a meeting doesn't mean you were willing to sell nor put yourself forward nor that the other party made an offer you would accept.
Maybe TR did put themselves forward, said they wanted 300mil and Renault didn't want to pay more than 150mil on them. Then say Lotus cost £60mil once all the debt was paid and that was the option they took. Talking doesn't imply an agreement or a deal is in place nor is TR necessarily a better deal than Lotus, price, factoring in facilities, staff, debt, future potential, existing ties between companies, can mean lets say 150mil for TR is better value than 100mil for Lotus, but 250mil for TR and then Lotus becomes the better deal.
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Tell me, how are Magnussen and Vandorme doing in that young driver program?
Does the token system control costs?
It controls development costs, which you would assume at least has some effect on controlling what the manufacturers charge customers.
I'm sure Ferrari and Renault would love to start again from scratch and build brand new engines now, but I'm not sure splurging another half billion each is going to go down well with anyone...
Shock as F1 aranged **** up in a brewery fails...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122644
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/122644
What evidence is there that it does control development costs? It is equally likely that the same level of development takes place as an unrestricted environment, maybe more in fact, as the restriction is not on the development itself but what changes are actually applied to the engine. It is perfectly possible that a number of different design routes are chosen and tested but only one can be applied.
I'd be surprised (and worried) if anyone managed to spend just as much money on tweaking turbos and adjusting ERS solutions as they did developing the entire engine from scratch.
I think Mercedes are the only ones to be open about how much they spent, and it was about $500m over a couple of years to create the base V6 that will be here until 2020 at least.
I think Mercedes are the only ones to be open about how much they spent, and it was about $500m over a couple of years to create the base V6 that will be here until 2020 at least.