Motorsport Off Topic Thread

[Jono8]

It’s a shame to see LeClerc basically stuck at Ferrari but it’s a rock and a hard place. Ferrari are an outside chance of taking the title but every realistic option he has would be worse.

Which surprises me about the rumour Sainz is looking for the door as leaving he’ll be in the exact same position.

This

It's impossible to predict who will have the fastest/championship winning car.

Ferrari are still a good bet for finding some form again and making a great car. They've been close these last few years.

Other than Red Bull, there is no other team on the grid that would necessarily be a safer bet.

 

[Mr Jack]

Andretti are already working on their F1 car. That's a lot of money and effort already going on something that hasn't been confirmed yet, and is actively opposed by the existing teams. Hopefully, it'll pile even more pressure on FOM and the teams to approve Andretti's entry.

 

[Gaijin]

Yeah I saw that earlier and was a bit surprised as the last I heard they were still headed for rejection.

I do see the annoyance of the teams that another prospective team has "turned up when the sun is shining", but I would like to see Andretti/GM in the sport.

I'm not sure how good their chances are though.

 

[MissChief]

Yeah I saw that earlier and was a bit surprised as the last I heard they were still headed for rejection.

I do see the annoyance of the teams that another prospective team has "turned up when the sun is shining", but I would like to see Andretti/GM in the sport.

I'm not sure how good their chances are though.

So far, every hurdle they’ve had put in front of them they’ve cleared. You don’t have the money, base, staff or equipment to be competitive. New HQ, satellite base in the UK, hired a great many staff who have worked in F1 for decades with top teams.
You don’t have manufacturer support. Bring in GM under the Cadillac brand. But they’re just a sponsor. GM commits to producing an engine for the 2028 season.
You don’t have the money to pay the $200 million entry. We do, already factored into our financials.

In short there is little logical reason why they shouldn’t be permitted to join. Indeed they should be welcomed with open arms. The teams are being extremely selfish, especially the smaller ones who are fearful of losing some money and also being beaten by this new team. Liberty should come out and state that the existing payments to teams will be retained at their current level with an additional payment created for Andretti.

 

[Mr Jack]

In short there is little logical reason why they shouldn’t be permitted to join. Indeed they should be welcomed with open arms. The teams are being extremely selfish, especially the smaller ones who are fearful of losing some money and also being beaten by this new team.

Indeed. The teams have no formal say, fortunately, so FOM should get on and act in the interest of the sport by approving the entry. That they aren't is as much about a spat between the FIA and the FOM - itself largely a grudge between bin Sulayem and Domenicali - as it is about legitimate questions.

Liberty should come out and state that the existing payments to teams will be retained at their current level with an additional payment created for Andretti.

I can't see why Liberty would do that, nor why they should. Team payments are calculated as a percentage of the money coming in. The $200m entry payment is the teams payout for any loses; beyond that, they just need to beat Andretti.

 

[Gaijin]

So far, every hurdle they’ve had put in front of them they’ve cleared. You don’t have the money, base, staff or equipment to be competitive. New HQ, satellite base in the UK, hired a great many staff who have worked in F1 for decades with top teams.
You don’t have manufacturer support. Bring in GM under the Cadillac brand. But they’re just a sponsor. GM commits to producing an engine for the 2028 season.
You don’t have the money to pay the $200 million entry. We do, already factored into our financials.

In short there is little logical reason why they shouldn’t be permitted to join. Indeed they should be welcomed with open arms. The teams are being extremely selfish, especially the smaller ones who are fearful of losing some money and also being beaten by this new team. Liberty should come out and state that the existing payments to teams will be retained at their current level with an additional payment created for Andretti.

Yeah, I agree. As said I understand the standpoint of the teams, but it largely comes down to annoying politics. It's clearly a full-fat entry and would be a great talking point. Much better than talking about Alpha Tauri's abomination of a team name.

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

tbh i think Andretti should be allowed in at the current concorde agreement of $200million entry fee, the biggest loser in all this imo could potentially be Haas. It is possible that Andretti comes in and if they beat Haas even if no-one else it's a nail in the coffin of Haas' belief that no investment is needed to get up the grid.....even if they beat williams this year.

 

[MissChief]

Team payments are calculated as a percentage of the money coming in.

The actual payments are a from a fixed fund, split between the number of entries with room in the regulations and commercial agreement for up to 12 teams. The current teams have been getting a 10 way split of this fund instead of what could, and probably should, be a 12 way split.

I also take issue with the way the teams are now saying the entry payment should be much higher now. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but you all signed the agreement and agreed to all that it contains. Tough luck that things have changed. Also it might start getting legal and anti-competitive if Andretti are not allowed to join despite meeting all the criteria. The EU especially won’t like that at all.

 

[Mr Jack]

The actual payments are a from a fixed fund, split between the number of entries with room in the regulations and commercial agreement for up to 12 teams.

It's not a fixed fund, it's a split of revenues, a bit under 50% of the pot goes to the teams with various teams getting "historical" pay-outs and about 25% ending up in the prize pot (as per here). When F1 makes more money there's more money in the pot; and one presumes that Andretti would bring extra revenue by entering the sport given their big existing fan base and the extra interest they'd generate.

 

[MissChief]

It's not a fixed fund, it's a split of revenues, a bit under 50% of the pot goes to the teams with various teams getting "historical" pay-outs and about 25% ending up in the prize pot (as per here). When F1 makes more money there's more money in the pot; and one presumes that Andretti would bring extra revenue by entering the sport given their big existing fan base and the extra interest they'd generate.

Exactly, they’re a household name in the US, even known by non-race fans.

 

[Slam62]

So FOM have rejected Andretti, leaving the door open for 28, yeah right.

 

[Slam62]

tbh i think Andretti should be allowed in at the current concorde agreement of $200million entry fee, the biggest loser in all this imo could potentially be Haas. It is possible that Andretti comes in and if they beat Haas even if no-one else it's a nail in the coffin of Haas' belief that no investment is needed to get up the grid.....even if they beat williams this year.

Let’s face it the reason for Haas being there is baffling, maybe Andretti will buy them out.

 

[Mr Jack]

Shame on FOM.

 

[MissChief]

Shame on F1 and the teams. Disgusting selfishness.

According to F1, which has conducted an in-depth commercial assessment, Andretti has not proven it would add enough to offset the downsides and potential risks, or proven it would be competitive, and F1 does not believe it should be allowed an entry.

Among the reasons given are an expected lack of competitiveness, the need for a customer engine, and a lack of commercial value.

Haas are not competitive, neither are Sauber Whatever they’re called Now. Williams too. I propose they remove the last placed entrant in the WCC at the end of any season where someone else wants to enter. They have absolutely no idea how competitive, or uncompetitive Andretti will be. This stinks of the smaller teams like Haas, Williams and Sauber all being scared they’ll be beaten by the new team.

Half the teams use a customer engine, are they all now in danger of being kicked out?

Lack of commercial value? They’re a household name with decades of racing experience in F1 and other forms of motorsport. They could open up the States for major commercial opportunities from companies eager to hitch a ride on the Andretti and F1 coattails.

This has actually left a really sour taste in my mouth. Liberty and FOM may as well lock the sport in to ten teams and rewrite the next agreement as it’s clear they don’t intend to let anyone else in.

 

[GravyMonster]

How much of this is down to the teams collective bargaining and how much is down to the whim of FOM? Genuine question as I have no idea.

 

[Jimbeam3678]

Shame on F1 and the teams. Disgusting selfishness.

Haas are not competitive, neither are Sauber Whatever they’re called Now. Williams too. I propose they remove the last placed entrant in the WCC at the end of any season where someone else wants to enter. They have absolutely no idea how competitive, or uncompetitive Andretti will be. This stinks of the smaller teams like Haas, Williams and Sauber all being scared they’ll be beaten by the new team.

Half the teams use a customer engine, are they all now in danger of being kicked out?

Lack of commercial value? They’re a household name with decades of racing experience in F1 and other forms of motorsport. They could open up the States for major commercial opportunities from companies eager to hitch a ride on the Andretti and F1 coattails.

This has actually left a really sour taste in my mouth. Liberty and FOM may as well lock the sport in to ten teams and rewrite the next agreement as it’s clear they don’t intend to let anyone else in.

Have you listened to James Vowels reasoning for not having an 11th team? Seemed like sound reasoning to me.

 

[bennyx_o]

Quote from this BBC article is a bit much IMO

"While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around,"

 

[Gaijin]

I'm disappointed with the outcome, despite seeing it from both sides. I think most of the disappointment comes from the fact that it was a pretty strong case for an entrant in my eyes, and if it doesn't happen for them, it's unlikely to happen for any other candidates.

Some of the reasoning is pretty flawed:

"a. consideration of the likely competitiveness of the Applicant’s entry, and its impact on value;" - I don't think any new team is going to be immediately competitive given the importance of experience and learning from previous years.

"c. research into the potential benefits the Applicant might bring in terms of fan growth, and fan engagement, as well as a review of the equivalent materials prepared by C|T Group on behalf of the Applicant;" , "8. Our assessment process has established that the presence of an 11th team would not, in and of itself, provide value to the Championship." - I can't understand how this wouldn't result in substantial market growth in the US

"d. consultation with key stakeholders to understand their view of the value that the Applicant would bring;" - And apparently according to Craig Slater, this wasn't the teams

"e. consideration of the operational impact on our existing circuits of adding an 11th team" - There was 11 teams in 2016?

"16. While the Andretti name carries some recognition for F1 fans, our research indicates that F1 would bring value to the Andretti brand rather than the other way around." - Reeks of contempt for Andretti tbh

They then dangle the carrot for 2028 knowing full well that it creates a chicken and egg situation where the question would be whether GM/Andretti would want to invest the significant amount just for the chance and nothing more, of getting on the grid in 2028.

 

[AlphariusOmegan]

the other point is by 2028 there will be a new concorde agreement and the dilution fee will be massively increased so no-one will want to even bother....$1bil has been mentioned as a figure and i can't see Andretti/Cadilac thinking oh yes that'll be totally worth it to our brands. (could be wrong though)

 

[Mr Jack]

Feels like an absolute bait-and-switch to invite applications and then reject one of such clear strength. Hard to imagine any team managing a more convincing case. I wonder whether this will go to court - and I can't imagine the obvious shower of bull that FOM have come up with standing up if it does.