Motorsport Off Topic Thread

Brawn has said, afaik, that Lowe won't be part of the team till he leaves, errm, here's the quote

"If I choose to leave the team then Paddy will come. We've got a plan. We have a fall-back plan. It's as simple as that."

So basically, Lowe was a plan for a replacement for Brawn from what I can tell, meaning Brawn is almost definitely leaving his current post end of 2013. Seems a bit odd he didn't want to try and make a killer car with new regulations, though he'll still be largely responsible for next years car anyway.

If Brawn goes elsewhere or leaves F1 as a major player, who knows, but it seems from whats being said that Lowe will be in Brawns position next year.
 
No way can he retire.
He may take a sabbatical...but not outright retirement.
From the way it looks though, he is definitely on the way out. I guess Mercedes feel that he just isn't doing a good enough job.
 
Random snippet of information I read in F1 Racing this morning; Alonso renegotiated his Ferrari contract over the winter off the back of a great season, and as a result Ferrari's attitude towards having Alonso and Vettel in the same team has changed from "wouldn't that be interesting" to a flat "no". Suspicion is that Alonso's new contract states Vettel wont be able to join while he is still there, which is a shame, as that would have been great to watch.
 
Interesting re: Brawn though. I thought he was the big appeal for Lewis coming over, amongst other things. Oddly it seems to me like some of the major draws they had for him, are slowly being taken away.

No idea what Paddy's relationship with Lewis was mind. Maybe he's trying to bring the change himself.

kd
 
Yup, for all we know Lewis loves Paddy and part of the reason he moved was he knew Paddy was moving over, or maybe he just wanted to get away from him, Paddy has a grudge against Lewis, and moved to Merc just to screw with him :p

It's all guesswork but considering the Lowe to Merc talk has been around for a while personally I would say Lewis knew this was on the cards and was for it, or didn't mind, which suggests Lewis's main issues with Mclaren lay elsewhere, I doubt Button alone would make him leave as ultimately I still think he left because Mclaren with the best car can't deliver a title while Ferrari, RBR and probably Merc could.

So if he had no problem with Lowe, and probably shouldn't seeing as the car was good and development of the car throughout the season was good, I would guess that points towards him having no faith in Whitmarsh.

I honestly think the main reason Hamilton went to Merc was simply, he moved to the best team with a spot available to get away from Mclaren. Lotus don't look half bad but Merc have a team, resources, a new engine for 2014 and have won a title a hell of a lot more recently than Lotus so even if he could have taken Grosjean's seat, I think Merc is the better choice for potential it not actual performance right now. If RBR or Ferrari had a seat available I think he'd have gone to either over Merc without thinking about it.
 
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Yup, for all we know Lewis loves Paddy and part of the reason he moved was he knew Paddy was moving over, or maybe he just wanted to get away from him, Paddy has a grudge against Lewis, and moved to Merc just to screw with him :p.

Given how nothing stays secret for long these days - I cant see how Lewis /Paddy signings are connected in the slightest.

The time between Lewis signing and even the rumour starting that Paddy may leave McLaren / join Merc was several months.

It's all guesswork but considering the Lowe to Merc talk has been around for a while personally I would say Lewis knew this was on the cards and was for it, or didn't mind, which suggests Lewis's main issues with Mclaren lay elsewhere, I doubt Button alone would make him leave as ultimately I still think he left because Mclaren with the best car can't deliver a title while Ferrari, RBR and probably Merc could..

Surely there is more evidence to suggest McLaren can and Merc cant - even after three seasons Merc has only won one single race out of nigh on 60.

For right or wrong, Lewis moved because he thought he could beat Rosberg hands down and get the undisputed No1 seat that he wasnt given at McLaren.

No one can say anything about 2014 onwards apart from it being a possibility for advantage Merc - even taking McLaren (due to the same engine) out of the equation, its still far more likely that RBR and Ferrari will be ahead next season
 
Random snippet of information I read in F1 Racing this morning; Alonso renegotiated his Ferrari contract over the winter off the back of a great season, and as a result Ferrari's attitude towards having Alonso and Vettel in the same team has changed from "wouldn't that be interesting" to a flat "no". Suspicion is that Alonso's new contract states Vettel wont be able to join while he is still there, which is a shame, as that would have been great to watch.

For some reason I really want Webber at Ferrari as a second driver to try and stop Vettel against Alonso. Would be interesting :D
 
McLaren always think long-term and I'm sure that they have dozens of people waiting to take Lowe's place, now that he is on gardening leave.
McLaren are strong and for the foreseeable future, will be competitive. They run their team like a business/corporation, constantly thinking about future income (the opposite of how Williams used to run their team).

One thing I was thinking about is the following:
- Alonso is widely regarded as the best driver in F1.
- Given the above, how long is he likely to continue driving for Ferrari, if they keep getting hammered by RBR?

The best drivers in F1 rarely stays in a team which is unable to win a title.

In 1992 and 1993 Senna got tired of getting beaten by Williams. In 1994, he joined them.
MSc (1994-2006) was an anomaly, in that whichever team he moved to, he made great. So, I can't speak for him. Probably the only driver in history to be able to do this.
In 2007, after MSc's retirement, Kimi moved to Ferrari, after McLaren kept giving him fragile cars.
Alonso, in 2007, moved to McLaren, as he felt that McLaren were better equipped to increase his title tally, over the coming years.
In 2010, Alonso got tired of Renault and moved to Ferrari.
In 2012, Hamilton finally got frustrated at McLaren's inability to produce a title winning car...she he left for Merc.

So, that brings us to today.
Alonso hasn't won the title for 3 years - why is there no mention of him changing teams?
 
So, that brings us to today.
Alonso hasn't won the title for 3 years - why is there no mention of him changing teams?

Um, maybe because he has a contract (which he just renegotiated) there until the end of 2016...

Alonso is at Ferrari because that's where he want's to be.

Also, he didn't 'get tired of Renault' and move to Ferrari. Alonso was going to Ferrari the moment he fell out with Ron, he just couldn't do it straight away. It was common knowledge to everyone that his 2 years at Renault were just him waiting for a spot to open up at Ferrari.

Its about more than just the car though. Could you see him being the same centre of the universe at any other top team? Picking his team mate, blocking any challengers from joining the team, and being about the only person since Schumacher that has become bigger than the team he's driving for? Of course not. Ferrari treat him like a god, and in return he gives them his loyalty.
 
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Given how nothing stays secret for long these days - I cant see how Lewis /Paddy signings are connected in the slightest.

The time between Lewis signing and even the rumour starting that Paddy may leave McLaren / join Merc was several months.

Surely there is more evidence to suggest McLaren can and Merc cant - even after three seasons Merc has only won one single race out of nigh on 60.

For right or wrong, Lewis moved because he thought he could beat Rosberg hands down and get the undisputed No1 seat that he wasnt given at McLaren.

No one can say anything about 2014 onwards apart from it being a possibility for advantage Merc - even taking McLaren (due to the same engine) out of the equation, its still far more likely that RBR and Ferrari will be ahead next season

Firstly, things stay secret all the time, only the things you hear about didn't stay a secret, the ones that did, you haven't heard about. As for the rest, lol, Lewis moved to a "worse" team just to be number one... only because in your opinion he wasn't already, most people regard that differently. He moved because with the best car Mclaren still failed him miserably. Button didn't do enough to win the title last year, Hamilton did, there is a clear number one, and any other team with that car and Hamilton would have won the title and probably should have won the constructors. No other driver came remotely close to self inflicted damage as Mclaren did to Hamilton. Busted cars, lack of fuel in quali, crap pit stops and bad tactics.

There isn't any point being at the team with the best car if they still can't win. As for why Merc might compete now but not for the past three years, well, some comparisons of budgets.. ballpark, I don't think any are massively accurate but the general order of things seems to be agreed by most sources.

In 2008 Toyota, Mclaren, Ferrari were between $450-400, Honda and Renault were just under $400, RBR were at $170mil.

2009 Brawn were down at £100million, Mclaren were spending £310million in the same year, Toyota were down to £260mil and Ferrari were at £240mil(this one I don't really believe as many say besides Toyota Ferrari have spent similarly mental amounts since 2008).

Honda to Brawn meant the team dropped down massively in spending from within 10% of Mclaren, to spending 33% of what Mclaren were spending, and a HUGE amount of spending means teams developing next years cars, in year development, losing huge numbers of staff, testing facilities, everything. They had a lot of the spending done on that Brawn, but then the money was gone. The average team spend was £170mil that year, which should give a good indication of exactly how low Brawn's budget fell., can't find Red Bull spending but I'm under the impression it was fairly damn low.

2011
1] Ferrari: €440m (Same budget since 2008, 2012 will see it go down to €300m)
2] McLaren: €320m (Down €5m on 2010, 2012 will see it go down to €285m)
3] Red Bull: €285m (up €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
4] Mercedes: €225m (up €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
5] Renault: €185m (down €40m on 2010, uncertain for 2012)
6] Williams: €140m (down €40m on 2010, will stay same for 2012)
7] Force India: €135m (up €10m on 2010, will drop to €130m for 2012)
8] Sauber: €125m (up from €75m in 2010, will stay same in 2012)
=] Toro Rosso: €125m (up €15m from 2010, will increase to €140m in 2012)
10] Team Lotus: €120m (€20m up on 2010, however 2012 will see this riase to a minimum of €150m)
11] Virgin: €66m (up from €45m in 2010, this is expected to rise to €85m for 2012)
12] Hispania: €55m (up from a €38.6m budget, expected to rise to a budget of arround €65m to €70m in 2012)

Red Bull have been steadily increasing their spending as they've been successful, Ferrari have always spent daft amounts(largely on HUGE salaries).


2012
Red Bull-Renault = €265m - €380m Adjusted
McLaren-Mercedes = €250m
Scuderia Ferrari = €310m
Mercedes AMG F1 = €200m
Lotus-Renault = €160-180
Force India-Mercedes = €125m
Sauber-Ferrari = €85m
Toro Rosso-Ferrari = €115m
Williams-Renault = €115m
Caterham-Renault = €105m
HRT-Cosworth = €50m
Marussia-Cosworth = €70m

Adjusted there is the budget added with their secondary teams

The biggest problem Merc had is the massive drop in spending in 2009, which was a crucial year the current cars are essentially 2010 cars, the year before which Merc had about 17p spare to design that car, so they've been on the back foot since the relatively current car has been around.

Lotus have spent less than Merc and made a pretty decent damn car for the money, but the other key thing really is that Merc had to just rip the team to pieces due to lack of money in 2009, while other teams reduced spending a bit at a time, cutting back, reducing wages of drivers, everyone involved really. The difference between a planned scaling back and gutting the team completely then rebuilding from scratch is just not comparable.

Essentially long term Merc will be spending similar amounts while having mechanics, testing, design teams all having worked together for at least a couple of years while not being vastly outspent by those above them.

There is no spend X amount get place Y, but spending 1/3 of what the top guys were, no chance of being competitive, the entire lack of money in 2009 wiped out the cars chance for 2010/2011, and they spent much of that time rebuilding the team, looking closer(but not there at all) last year. This would be the first season they have a remotely comparable budget and being fully staffed up for the year previous.
 
one excuse after another - hired by Ross Brawn by any chance? lol

and fyi - if he was undisputed No1 with the team, he would have won a lot more races, but McLaren gave BOTH drivers an equal chance (even if the car was designed around more outright speed rather than endurance as such)
 
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