MSI: *Offical* N460GTX Hawk 1GB OC Edition thread

[MSI-Guru]

It has finally arrived, the big brother to the popular N460GTX Cyclone edition, called the N460GTX Hawk. Some images below:



So what are the main differences?
A new 7+1 phase power design, using the top components for power phases on a GPU. In short this is designed to give a stable and high power delivery to the GPU when required, perfect for getting the ultimate overclock.

3 Voltage adjustments with MSI Afterburner OC tool!
World first card to support voltage adjustment of GPU, Memory and PLL Voltages for greatest overclocking control and results.

V-Check points!
Points on the PCB for multimeter connection for accurate real time voltage readings.

Twin Frozr II Thermals!
Dual 8cm fans with quad heatpipe. Copper base plate with Nickel-plating for ultimate thermal transfer. Results in low noise, and efficient cooling.

As you can see this is the card for overclockers, its quite possible to break the 1GHz Core speed barrier with this card, and is the best way to get the full OC potential out of the nvidia 460GTX GPU. If overclocking is not your bag, on your not quite so bothered about pushing the card to the limits then the cyclone is possibly a better option (it will continue to be sold).

Whats more, the first batch of stock overclockers have comes with Assassins Creed 2 game bundle free

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-099-MS&groupid=701&catid=56&subcat=1830

Any Q's or comments on the card as always are welcome.

 

[MSI-Guru]

Will the Cyclone version ever be able to use Afterburners max voltage limit of 1.213v?

The max at the moment is the +200mV on the latest version. Within this 950MHz should be achieved without a problem. Over that is more GPU dependant. The limit is in place to protect users from damaging their card. If your using LN2 I or similar I think there are ways around it...

Why so conservative on the overclock, there are cheaper cards out there with well over 800 core, surely where the hawk is priced and with its excellent overclocking potential, it would have been best to retail them with 850 core or more, 780 core grabs no ones attention at the current price.

Great question. The card is designed for the user to overclock so the speed its shipped at is basically irrelevant. By putting a large pre-shipped OC, it gives the message this is the fastest the card can go which is the opposite of the actual case Pre-overclocks also don't take into account the environment the card is used in, we don't want to dictate what the limits are if that makes any sense.

P.S - if the card came pre-overclocked even more, it would bring up the price anyway. For the OCer that knows what they are doing that cost can be saved with a button click

 

[MSI-Guru]

Which is exactly why you buy the cheapest version and clock it yourself. Oops!

The point is, without the updates to the hardware it will not be possible to hit the same speeds, but I agree the proof is in the pudding. The card has just launched so watch this space

I think you misunderstood.
I would like to be able to use 1.213v to try for 950 Mhz, but this doesnt work on the cyclones. Are MSI going to ever fix this?

Try the latest version 2.0
http://event.msi.com/vga/afterburner/download.htm
let me know how you get on...

Any chance you can provide a link to anyone actually hitting 1Ghz OCCT stable? I haven't managed to find any, although TT managed a close 988mhz.

http://www.guru3d.com/news/msi-geforce-gtx-460-hawk/

 

[MSI-Guru]

So one anonymous person takes a photo of a few seconds of kombustor. Awesome proof :/

The cards only just released, so give it a chance Reviews and user posts should be popping up over the coming weeks which should give some true insight into the OC potential but until then you will just have take it at face value

 

[MSI-Guru]

I just found a piece of pudding:

http://forums.vr-zone.com/overclockers-hideout/833879-msi-n460gtx-hawk-1g-unboxed-overclocked-d.html

 

[MSI-Guru]

Could be on L2N.
Also a benchmark doesn't deem stability to some, I can bench at 4.4GHZ, but I'm not stable at that.

These are pushing for the top OC's not necessarily long term stability. Can you find any other cards with a 1Ghz bench, stable or not stable?

They've actually reduced the maximum voltage down to 1.087v this time.

Stock voltage is 0.975v. +200mV would be 1.175v.

People with the Palit card are able to use Afterburner 1.6.1 to to set them up to 1.213v.

1.087v is not enough to go over 900 Mhz for most of these cards.

Understood I'll find out for you..

 

[MSI-Guru]

Not to blow my own trumpet MSI Guru, but my launch day 5870 ran a 1.1GHZ Core on air, stable .
My current Asus V2 is 1GHZ MSI Kombustor stable.

So you are perfect to push the hawk over 1GHz no problems You can make the pudding!!

 

[MSI-Guru]

Hi

Having bought one of these cards (delivery this morning hopefully).

A couple of questions for MSI-guru

Considering long term stability and the operating life of this card in general...

What would you personally consider a safe voltage to put through these cards and what sort of MHz should I be aiming for, for long term reliability???

On the hawk in particular, the circuits, components, pcb and cooling have all been upgraded to over engineer that card for the kind of stress you will be putting it under overclocking. This is a feature of both Lightning and Hawk series cards which is why we promote these specifically at overclocking. Providing the voltages reached are not silly, and adequate cooling is in place there should be no long term damage from a stable overclock.

I'm not that interested in just being able to boast that I've got the fastest HAWK, I just want a reasonable OC that is not going to knacker the card after a couple of weeks / months use.

A couple of weeks or months use would be an extreme situation! However my can certainly apply a modest overclock to 800-850MHz should be possible without too much Voltage hike and provide you with some extra bang for buck. On the hawk specifically, this kind of overclock should see no detriment to the life of the card.

My other question is... with MSI actually appearing to encourage people to OC these days (with the inclusion of Afterburner). What's the warranty position if you damage your card using a utility you have provided the end user?

We only encourage users comfortable with overclocking to overclock. For those not comfortable, we often provide small OC's out of the box to give extra value for the novice user. Afterburner software and similar initiatives are to support those enthusiasts who are keen o OC and are comfotable with the risks.

If your card is damaged from overclocking strictly speaking its not covered under warranty. Although if there is no damage to the board, no obvious signs of volt modding (hardware), burns, or inadequate cooling... you are likely to have no issues with a warranty replacement. If however you for instance increase the voltage so much, with the fans on low that the PCB warped or burned for example, it would be obvious and not covered.

In short, any sensible OCer will not have a problem.

Obviously running a graphics card with a high OC looks great to start with, but will it last the test of time (IE. 2 years down the road). Little point in doing this if your card is FUBAR after a couple of months.

While I know there are many variables here (heat being one of them), are the components in this card REALLY up to the stress long term??? I rather hope so, considering the price difference between this and a stock card.

Thanks in advance.

Overclocking no doubt will reduce the lifespan by some degree or another just as underclocking will likely increase it. However, this may be from 10 years down to 8 years. The UK warranty on MSI products is 2 years, and for most graphics card enthusiasts they will be looking to upgrade after 2 years (or before), not to mention the card will not be worth as much after that time has passed. I must stress however we would expect the card to last a lot longer than 2 years no matter what the OC

Hope it helps

 

[MSI-Guru]

They've actually reduced the maximum voltage down to 1.087v this time.

Stock voltage is 0.975v. +200mV would be 1.175v.

People with the Palit card are able to use Afterburner 1.6.1 to to set them up to 1.213v.

1.087v is not enough to go over 900 Mhz for most of these cards.

Understood I'll find out for you..

Ok, the reason you cant get the card above 1.087v is due to a hardware limitation with the nvidia card design. The presumably is to prevent damage to the card.

However, on the Hawk series due to the up spec on the components, MSI employ a hardware modification to allow 3 voltage points to be changed independently allowing the higher clocks to be reached.

In regards to the palit, they too suffer the drop down to 1.087v (from the NV driver). If you have seen it go above this, it will be due to a hardware mod on the board. If you have any examples you can check that this is the case.

Hope it helps, but sorry its not better news

 

[MSI-Guru]

MSI-guru

Thanks for your reply. Nice to see a company taking a sensible attitude and one that obviously has belief in their product.

Mines just arrived. Initial impressions are of a very well built card. I'll install it later today and have a play around with it and post my experiences etc. in a separate thread.

Np. Let me know how you get on. Also if you want to post some unboxing pics in this thread, I will whiz you a free MSI t-shirt

 

[MSI-Guru]

Palit released a new official bios for their GTX 460 that allows them to work at 1.213v.

There are similar modded bioses already available, but I am still hoping for an official bios from MSI that will allow the higher voltage limit to work.

Do you have the source for this info? If its a BIOS fix I am sure others will follow.

 

[MSI-Guru]

Will do.
I like the nice touch of plastic covers over all the connectors.

The only question that you did not answer earlier. Is why most manufacturers of these cards (IE. 460's) are under clocking the Samsung memory. Which if you GOOGLE the chip ID's, appears to be rated at 1,000MHz, as opposed to the 900 MHz that is being used.

Thanks again.

Nice one, please PM me with your address and t-shirt size I will get one off to you

In regards the memory, I will check but it would not surprise me if it indeed uses the faster memory to give better OC headroom, that's what this card is all about I will check and keep you posted, it would be a nice no brainer OC to begin with.

 

[MSI-Guru]

Hi. I don't think the PM system is enabled on this forum. Think you would need to get your TRUST enabled by OCuk, this is as far as I know, the only way to send a message on the forum.

Though I think you might be able to click the trust button on one of my posts and send me an Email address that I can contact you on.

PM'd (I think) through the trust button.


Some Reviews for anyone wanting a read:

Tweaktown.com: *Editors Choice:
“The fastest GTX 460 and the best valued video card we've tested to date”
http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/3...60_hawk_1gb_video_card_overclocked/index.html
“…a friggen’ HUGE ASS OC!!”


Techpowerup: Grade: 9.4
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_460_HAWK/32.html
“MSI's GeForce GTX 460 HAWK is rock solid version of a factory overclocked GTX 460”


Guru3d: Tweaker’s Essential award:
http://guru3d.com/article/msi-geforce-gtx-460-hawk-review/21
“The sheer design and quality components alone make this an awesome product which you'll like very much, and is something that the more tweaking and enthusiast crowd will like very much.”

 

[MSI-Guru]

Yep... I'll fire off a reply in a minute. Thanks...

I've tried a couple of OC's. 820 on the core and 1,000 on the memory appears stable at stock volts.

But... just a little confused about the core voltage adjustment on Afterburner.

Stock volts at 2D appear to be 0.875. On 3D it looks like 1.025.

But if I drag the voltage adjustment to +10 in Afterburner and click apply, run a 3D application (EG. Kombuster) GPU-Z still seems to report a VDDC of 1.025. I was expecting this would have gone up to reflect the change I made in Afterburner!? or am I missing something?

What ver?

 

[MSI-Guru]

Emmm.

" uP6262 used to control voltage on 460 HAWK series doesn't support voltage feedback and software monitoring."

tbh, thats news to me if in indeed is the case. However regarding....

" How many people out there are going to start attaching a multi-meter to their graphics card every time they want to play around with the OC?!?!

For the top overclockers that's the only way This is a card targeted at them, and to this end has V-check points and multimeter clips included with the card.

For the less demanding OCer, simply using the voltage supplied in Afterburner should be accurate enough. I can't really see a major issue.

 

[MSI-Guru]

I am still checking into your post, and hopefully will be able to update.

I don't think you have anything to worry about in terms of the voltages though, I think it is indeed simply a case of what component(s) the voltage is being read across and the load that those components are under when reading but will see if I can get anything more.

 

[MSI-Guru]

I ran OCCT for 10mins at 930/1100 but then quit because temps went way too high (80+degrees) and I had no wish to brick my card. With the volt-modded ASUS bios the card will bench Heaven and game at 960core (1.150v) but I will not even attempt OCCT at this speed and voltage. I very much doubt that 1GHz is possible with air cooling on any GTX 460 1GB.

Toasty ! Did you have the fan RPM maxed out? Also you open or closed case?

 

[MSI-Guru]

Much appreciated and thanks also for the "care package". Received today and proudly wearing my T-shirt (even if it is bloody freezing in sunny Scotlandshire today)

Np. With your overclocking I would have thought that your area of Scotland would be a few degrees warmer

 

[MSI-Guru]

So... after posting on a number of forums, I've so far discovered.

- You can't check the voltages on the card via software (IE. GPU-z, Nvidia Inspector etc.) as it's not supported. Any values displayed by these programs are just some sort of defaults that it shows.

- Even if you could check voltages with software, you can't really compare them to voltages read direct from the card. It's like comparing apples and pears... or in this case, Apples and hovercraft!

- The only review on the Net that I can find that appears to have actually checked voltages with a multimeter, is this one:

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_460_HAWK/31.html

I Emailed w1zzard who wrote this article and he's been kind enough to reply. And it basically looks like my readings are within what he would expect.

And as to why the load voltage appears to jump by more than the bump voltage in Afterburner. I'll quote what someone at the MSI user forums said

"Have you taken in account that the reading point can be at the beginning of the lines.
So when you stress the card the voltage needs to be compensated by the losses from the lines.
Ergo, if more amps are needed to transport, line losses go up"

And the above is something I had wondered about and hinted at in an earlier post on this thread but did not have the right words to describe it.

So.... looks like all is OK.

Though I shall still be very interested to hear the results etc. from any other owner of the MSI HAWK edition of this card.

OK. In response to this, the voltage readings you see from the multimeter are correct, and the reason they are high is indeed due to the location of the V-check points. There is a certain amount of Vdrop between the V-check points and the actual GPU and memory. This means the voltage if actually measured across GPU and memory would be close to what is expected.

 

[MSI-Guru]

MSI-Guru

Me again.

Out of interest. Why is it that pretty much every test / review of this card that I've read .... seems to use a different version of Afterburner than is supplied to people buying retail cards?

For example:

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/09/20/msi_n460gtx_hawk_edition_video_card_review/6

To quote the test article above:

"The GPU voltage slider goes from -100mV to +200mV (millivolts)"

O'no it doesn't in the version on MSI's WEB site!

Did MSI decide to reduce this to +100mV to "play safe"?

Supplying Beta software to reviewers like this doesn't look good to me. I can't help but think that this gives a false impression of this cards Over Clocking potential. Not like they got anywhere near 1GHz in the article above anyway.

Though I do accept that every GPU core has potentially different upper limits etc.
At this price point, I would have thought that MSI would have cherry picked the GPU. But I'm assuming this isn't the case.

I still think this is a decent product but that expectations have maybe been raised a little too high.

Where are you downloading from? http://event.msi.com/vga/afterburner/download.htm should be the latest version.

Every new card that comes out now requires an update, and being their have been many new cards recently it means that there are a lot of different versions knocking about.

We cannot guarantee the 1GHz threshold since it is quite a difficult feat, and as you mention requires luck when it come to the GPU you have. However the platform the GPU is on tries to remove any other cause for possible limitation for overclocking besides the GPU.

Afterburner should settle down soon into some more stable versions, but remember MSI is the leader for this software and the only ones who offer this solution currently and have been trying to make it as flexible as possible in a short period of time. Stick with it

I hope you are still enjoying the card anyway