Muslims, Pork, forced selling of

ironman · 24 May 2003 at 15:15

Originally posted by Deadly Ferret
What does Sikhism have to do with it? We're discussing Islam here, so what is your point?

I thought you would have understood, but clearly not. Let me explain, I gave an example of exactly what you think does not happen. Im thinking you havent been to any middle eastern or south asian countries? But you still put accross the view that they would not be accepted which is completely false, when we were in India the locals loved the white Britains, treating them with upmost repsect, almost like royality, so do a bit of research before you think these "extreme" countries have 0% tollarence on westerners.

If you are still confused or do not understand, re read what you posted.

Let's remember that we're in England here. They brought their religion with them. We let them keep it, which is more than the majority of their countries allow foreigners. Why the hell should any of us change our way of life to accomodate their foreign customs?

Ill ask you again, how did you come to that conclusion?

Dave M · 24 May 2003 at 15:35

And if you worked for a retail shop that decided to start selling a range of sex toys?

If your moral beliefs forbid you from dealing with such 'tools of the devil' you may well leave. The shop could not reasonably be epected to reverse their decision to please you.

If it was possible they could move you to a department not involved with sex toys - but what if there were no other positions you were qualified for?

A religion is a belief like any other, just cause you throw a god into it doesn't make it any more worthy.

Originally posted by Élynduil
Oh please, don't bother with the religious debate by calling it "irrational." It's their life, that belief is who they are. And they are being employed and should be able expect this small level of acceptance. And if in court having such a belief would not be dismissed, it would not be waved aside as irrational.
Nobody is yelling discrimination except you, but for want of a better word I suppose it is. Not exactly but close enough and if they took whatever company they work for to court I imagine it'd be under that. At the least there'd be unfair dismissal as well. I'm trying hard to come up with comparable situation but I really can't without being ridiculous. If a Sikh was sacked because a company introduced a policy of no headgear would that be acceptable? If all emplyees were suddenly expected to swear and you thought that was wrong and were sacked for not doing so would that be fair? Getting ridiculous but I'm knackered. This isn't discrimination. it's forbidding someones right to bring their life to work. Be who they are and believe what they do. It's a "sorry, we expect you to give up rights and change your religion as we change what we retail."
Yeah I started going OTT. Like I've said a couple of times before, what would you think if you were one of them? How would you feel to be denied that?

Moby-Dick · 24 May 2003 at 15:59

Correct me if I'm wrong , but doesn't the Qur'an advocate "fitting in" ie that if you where in a situation where it would be impolite not to eat non halal meat, it would be more sinful to refuse the meat that it would be to eat it as buy refusing it, you would offend your host etc.

I think that as the pork is in a wrapped state, then there isn't too much of a problem. I guess its all down to how you interpret the rules. I do get annoyed when people only seem to ahere to the rules that suit them......

wassap · 24 May 2003 at 16:16

Correct me if I'm wrong , but doesn't the Qur'an advocate "fitting in" ie that if you where in a situation where it would be impolite not to eat non halal meat, it would be more sinful to refuse the meat that it would be to eat it as buy refusing it, you would offend your host etc.

Nah m8, the quran doesnt state this

I think that as the pork is in a wrapped state, then there isn't too much of a problem. I guess its all down to how you interpret the rules. I do get annoyed when people only seem to ahere to the rules that suit them......

I agree

simisker · 24 May 2003 at 18:42

A Muslim walks into a food retail job interview [1]. He [for we shall assume he is male] is told that as part of his duties he will be expected to handle food - wrapped or bare - and alcoholic beverages. Being Muslim, this may concern him. In order to satisfy any concerns he may have, it would make utter sense to ask if there is the possibility of the job entailing the handling of haram produce. "Well, we aren't selling any at the moment", it is reasonable to assume that the employer would reply, "but I cannot rule out the possibility that this may change in the future". The interviewee then has a decision to make.

The point, then, is this: Whilst the employer has a responsibility to his/her company to find suitable people for the job, people tend to forget that the potential employee also has a similar responsibility, for their own sakes.

I can only speak for myself, but if I was vegetarian [for humane reasons], my very first question, if I was in any way unsure, would have been "Am I expected to handle meat products?", and if I was told that I was, I would have to think very carefully about accepting such a job offer. If I felt sufficiently strongly about the issues involved, the interview would be terminated there and then, and I would look elsewhere for a more suitable position.

[1] - Ouch! It was an iron food retail job interview. Aha.

Deadly Ferret · 24 May 2003 at 22:03

Originally posted by gurdas
I thought you would have understood, but clearly not. (1) Let me explain, I gave an example of exactly what you think does not happen. Im thinking you havent been to any middle eastern or south asian countries? (2) But you still put accross the view that they would not be accepted which is completely false, when we were in India the locals loved the white Britains, treating them with upmost repsect, almost like royality, so do a bit of research before you think these "extreme" countries have 0% tollarence on westerners. (3)

If you are still confused or do not understand, re read what you posted.

Ill ask you again, how did you come to that conclusion? (4)

1. Yawn.

2. Fine, you're thinking it. I have been to Egypt and Israel, not that this point of yours is in any way relevant as yet for you have shown no connection between it and what we are discussing.

3. Right then, I've got my scalpel out so let's look very closely at what you have said between "Let me explain..." and "0% tolerance on Westerners."

"Let me explain..." - okay, I'm listening.

"I gave an example of exactly what you think does not happen" - really? Where? Well, this thing which I think does not happen that you referred to, is that in general, Islamic countries do not allow foreigners to practise their religion. So for you to have given me an exact example of what I think does not happen often, and for it to be credible as a refutement of my statement, you would have had to have named enough Islamic countries that do allow foreigners to practise their religion to have formed a healthy percentage of the total number of Islamic countries in the world. But did you even name a single one? Nope.

"But you still put accross the view that they would not be accepted which is completely false" - False eh? Well you haven't given any evidence to the contrary...

"when we were in India the locals loved the white Britains, treating them with upmost repsect, almost like royality," - and this is relevant because...?

"so do a bit of research before you think these "extreme" countries have 0% tollarence on westerners." - Well as you'll have no doubt gleaned from what I have said thus far in this post, India does not qualify because it is not an official Islamic nation ergo it has about as much to do with this as a horny monkey from Peru...Tell you what, instead of advising me to do some research, why don't you try and compose a reply to my post instead?

4. Simple. England is officially a Christian nation.

Granted most of us are secular, but nonetheless any non-Christian religion is foreign to this land.

Mujja · 24 May 2003 at 23:03

Deadly Ferret,

Saudi Arabia is an example of extreme Islamic country. They allow westerners to live there and practise their own religion. Alchohol and sex have to kept to their compounds though.

More examples are Pakistan, Malaysia, Iran, you want more.

Every country will have its minority who don't want foreginers to bring their religion and customs into their country, an example, YOU.

ironman · 24 May 2003 at 23:16

Originally posted by Deadly Ferret
1. Yawn.

2. Fine, you're thinking it. I have been to Egypt and Israel, not that this point of yours is in any way relevant as yet for you have shown no connection between it and what we are discussing.

3. Right then, I've got my scalpel out so let's look very closely at what you have said between "Let me explain..." and "0% tolerance on Westerners."

"Let me explain..." - okay, I'm listening. "I gave an example of exactly what you think does not happen" - really? Where? Well, this thing which I think does not happen that you referred to, is that in general, Islamic countries do not allow foreigners to practise their religion. So for you to have given me an exact example of what I think does not happen often, and for it to be credible as a refutement of my statement, you would have had to have named enough Islamic countries that do allow foreigners to practise their religion to have formed a healthy percentage of the total number of Islamic countries in the world. But did you even name a single one? Nope.

"But you still put accross the view that they would not be accepted which is completely false" - False eh? Well you haven't given any evidence to the contrary...

"when we were in India the locals loved the white Britains, treating them with upmost repsect, almost like royality," - and this is relevant because...?

"so do a bit of research before you think these "extreme" countries have 0% tollarence on westerners." - Well as you'll have no doubt gleaned from what I have said thus far in this post, India does not qualify because it is not an official Islamic nation ergo it has about as much to do with this as a horny monkey from Peru...Tell you what, instead of advising me to do some research, why don't you try and compose a reply to my post instead?

4. Simple. England is officially a Christian nation.

Granted most of us are secular, but nonetheless any non-Christian religion is foreign to this land.

It was relavent because of your view of the east is that they do not accept foreigners, and I gave a very good example. I could have posted about an islamic country but im more familiar with countries I know about so that was the basis of my example.

Mujja has given some examples of islamic countries, as far as I know there are other religions practising there so what is the point of YOUR post?

Deadly Ferret · 24 May 2003 at 23:44

Originally posted by gurdas
It was relavent because of your view of the east is that they do not accept foreigners

No! I am not at all saying that Eastern countries do not accept foreigners themselves. As I've made quite clear, my view is that Islamic countries do not, in general, allow foreigners to practise their non-Islamic religions.

If I have to cover this simple point yet again I think I'll have to hit a cushion.

ironman · 24 May 2003 at 23:51

Originally posted by Deadly Ferret
No! I am not at all saying that Eastern countries do not accept foreigners themselves. As I've made quite clear, my view is that Islamic countries do not, in general, allow foreigners to practise their non-Islamic religions.

If I have to cover this simple point yet again I think I'll have to hit a cushion.

OK you got their in the end without all that other blah.

Mujja gave examples of Islamic countries which allow non islamic religions, what is your feeling towards that?

Rancidelephant · 25 May 2003 at 01:53

Originally posted by gurdas
Sikhism was founded in India, Christinity was brought over by foreginers, there are now more christians in India than Sikhs. What is your point?

Christianity is clearly the better religion, go figure.

I still believe that the company should not have to pander to the whims of 2 people and base their product range round them.

It would be like me objecting to my pub selling stella :rolleyes:

You may say this is ridiculous but if it was my religious belief that setlla is the evildooers drink what would you say then ?!? You would say i was being stupid because every1 knows that stella is a popular drink in this country as pork is a popular meat product.

It is my firm belief that stella is an evil beverage and i am going to oppose the introduction of it to my pub, if that ever happens.

ironman · 25 May 2003 at 02:00

Originally posted by Rancidelephant
Christianity is clearly the better religion, go figure.

.

Excuse me?

Deadly Ferret · 25 May 2003 at 02:17

Given that I had to explain about three times how you'd misunderstood what I was saying, it doesn't surprise me that you can't get your breadbox around a simple statement like the one you quoted.

I believe what he was saying is that given the way in which Christianity was widely embraced in favour of the native religion, one could argue that Christianity is therefore better than the native one. Simple enough logic.

Moby-Dick · 25 May 2003 at 03:10

Nah m8, the quran doesnt state this

I stand corrected - I'm sure it was an excuse used by muslims when my folks worked in nigera in order to have a sneaky drink

I'm glad you agree on the 2nd point though - I think that if you choose to follow a faith ( which I dont ) you should follow all its rules , not just those that suit you.

simisker · 25 May 2003 at 04:16

Originally posted by Deadly Ferret
...stuff...

Your condescending [to the point of inflammatory] attitude is one which, I have to confess, I find highly entertaining. A veritable breath of fresh air,as it were. Where were you before the GDZ/GDC schism?

I can barely wait until you next suckle at the marrow of a bone of contention.

Deadly Ferret · 25 May 2003 at 05:12

Thanks, and for my next trick I shall drink a spotted zebra under the table.

Although I think "condescending [to the point of inflammatory]" may be a little strong. I was only making a friendly jibe at good old Gurdas for wasting a whole post on a rhetorical "excuse me?" when he knew full well what the rancid elephant's point was.

ironman · 25 May 2003 at 12:06

It was not rhetorical, he doesnt know enough about Christianity and Sikhism to make claims like that. Did it ever occur to you that Sikhism is one of the youngest religions?

Its not a case of which religion is better, that argument is laughable and useless really.

Btw Ferret, you have yet to argue to defend your point against Islamic countries allowing practises of other religions, or did you dodge that on purpose as you didnt want to admit you were wrong?

HaX · 25 May 2003 at 12:56

Originally posted by seaviewuk
sometimes travel to work at gatwick on the train, there is a catering service (trolley at seat)

i have seen most of the staff and get on with them all, buying coffee etc etc.

this week they started selling sausage rolls, pork pies as a new item.

so far so good, but the trouble is this.

a couple of the guys are muslims and are not allowed to handle pork under their religion but their boss has told them that if they refuse to sell it then their jobs would not be there the following week. obviously the guys are not happy about it

they have no union and no written contract of employment, so basically they are on their own. leaving the job is not an option as they have found it hard to get employment, and yes, they are working legally

I want to help these guys out, without putting their jobs at risk what can i do for them?? any advice would be useful.

ps.the catering service is run as a franchise and is not part of the railway operation

At the end of the day they are employed to sell the products stocked by their employer. If they are unable to do this for any reason they are evidently unsuitable for the job.

Pixel · 25 May 2003 at 16:23

I agree HaX.

They are paid to handle the meat, and are not forced to eat it.

I have no sympathy for those that complain about such trivial matters in their work.

They should get on with their job - at least they have one.

JohnnyG · 25 May 2003 at 19:11

Hopefully these guys aren't actually physically handling the pork anyway. It has to be either wrapped or the employees must be wearing gloves otherwise the employer has a different case to answer. Presuming the employer is applying all health & safety standards, the employees must make their own decision based on what their religion really forbids & whether they are just kicking up an unneccessary fuss or not.