NEARLY 2 YEARS WAITING: New Mustang GT PP is finally mine!

What is 'negative knock' ?

Opposite of positive knock.

The ECU table for spark can be pre-set by the tuner, most target 25-26 degrees spark to be on the safe side at WOT, of course the ignition advance varies greatly depending on RPM, throttle input, load etc. etc, all best left to the tuner.

The ECU can then remove or add upto 8 degrees either way from the knock sensor reading, positive knock means it pulls timing and ideally you want to avoid this happening at all, though +1-2 degrees of positive knock won't cause harm and the ECU will retard the timing.

Negative knock is the opposite, the knock sensor lets the ECU know it can add more timing/spark which when it detects negative knock it will do.

Basically the ECU like most other modern cars can add and pull timing based on numerous sensors throughout the car, so having good fuel means typically you see negative knock and the car adds timing and the opposite happens for poor fuel. In short put in crap fuel, positive knock goes off, timing gets pulled, or engine goes boom if the car is mapped for a higher RON fuel. Put in really good fuel and ECU can see this from negative knock and it adds timing. Of course other things can cause knock sensor to go off positive or negative as well.


If the car was custom tuned they would set the spark to a point where there is no positive knock and around just a couple of degrees of negative knock. Reason is even if the car detects negative knock of say -6.00, the car will only add 1-2 degrees of spark so could still be down on power slightly. The car will pull a lot of timing if it detects positive knock (safety) but will only add in a little when it detects negative knock, again safety.

But in short negative knock just means the car is adding timing and the tune could be further optimised, in short it is safe. I am not interested in fine tuning right now, best case another 10 horsepower and a few datalogs done, right now it drives fine I am not bothered about 5-10 horses, so shall leave. Also the ECU learns over long term, in short keep putting in good fuel and it will eventually just set more ignition itself, but will take a few tank fulls to get there. Fill with crap and it will pull that timing real quick but will take a while to put it back.

They can get the tune optimal once manifolds are fitted, I prefer to play it safe. :)


P.S. The Ford stock map also has negative knock when filling with Vpower, as the car adjust power depending on octane.
 
Team Sky now have a Mustang after swapping sponsors from Jaguar to Ford:

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It sounds like retarding the ignition timing to me....

I am sure he gets it. :)

Positive knock, negative knock, ignition timing retard/advance, spark advance retard/advance, all the same.

Just because its not the terminology he is used to he likes to make a fuss. :D
 
Knock is an event, just because it doesnt happen doesnt mean its negative.

Why dont you call it guessed ignition advance
#negativeproperterminology.

Positive knock?!? :p:p:p:p crying.

8 degress swing from the ECU? Lets be honest its some hack thing, 8 degrees is next to nothing for real adjustment and using the knock sensor to adjust that on the fly is frankly scary but i guess NA allows these abuse cases.
 
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Oh dear. When the engineers on this forum start mocking the term you know you've been reading too much horse ***** on the owners forums.
 
I am sure he gets it. :)

Positive knock, negative knock, ignition timing retard/advance, spark advance retard/advance, all the same.

Just because its not the terminology he is used to he likes to make a fuss. :D

Hardly, what you are talking about is simply ignition timing. A knock sensor is just a microphone. The concept of it being able to tell the ECU that it can add ignition timing beyond the stored values is absolute rubbish. It's simply an emergency invade the engine knocks. It shouldnt be used as a tuning tool. Only a few engine have active ignition management. Saab pioneered it and the M5 V10 uses it via ionisation of the air in the combustion chamber via the spark plugs.

You don't even know the best ignition timing without a feedback (measure the power). This system you are using is just running the engine on the edge of knock. This is likely not even the best ignition timing

I guess all Diesels engines all have negative knock. When they are parked and not running ! Anyway - got to go. Got to negative forward to get my car off my drive
 
Knock is an event, just because it doesnt happen doesnt mean its negative.

Why dont you call it guessed ignition advance
#negativeproperterminology.

Positive knock?!? :p:p:p:p crying.

8 degress swing from the ECU? Lets be honest its some hack thing, 8 degrees is next to nothing for real adjustment and using the knock sensor to adjust that on the fly is frankly scary but i guess NA allows these abuse cases.


That is what I was trying to explain, it does happen, the knock sensor on the car does send a signal, in both negative and positive.

Cry all you like, it is just American terminology, like they call rubbish trash etc. But in the datalog software it does go both ways, I am not tuning the car I just merely datalogged the stock map and my new map and queried what negative knock was because as far as I was concerned any form of knock was bad and meant their was an issue. They informed me negative knock is good and just the ECU dialling in more ignition, it is just positive knock to worry about which my stock map and tuned map had none present.

Whether scary or not, that is how Ford have the car setup to work, I datalogged the stock map on the car, the knock sensor was reporting -4.0 at WOT on Shell Vpower on Fords stock map. I posted the datalogs openly on US forums and sent to a couple of tuners including the guys who tuned my old Mustang, who explained absolutely perfectly normal.

If your really interested here is a video by another tuner about datalogging:




The knock sensor in the software can go both negative and positive, I really think it is pretty self explanatory and easy to understand even if Americans use different terminology compared to British tuners. :)
 
Hardly, what you are talking about is simply ignition timing. A knock sensor is just a microphone. The concept of it being able to tell the ECU that it can add ignition timing beyond the stored values is absolute rubbish. It's simply an emergency invade the engine knocks. It shouldnt be used as a tuning tool. Only a few engine have active ignition management. Saab pioneered it and the M5 V10 uses it via ionisation of the air in the combustion chamber via the spark plugs.

You don't even know the best ignition timing without a feedback (measure the power). This system you are using is just running the engine on the edge of knock. This is likely not even the best ignition timing

I guess all Diesels engines all have negative knock. When they are parked and not running ! Anyway - got to go. Got to negative forward to get my car off my drive


Seems how Ford set the car up, whether right or wrong, I do not care, if Ford had made some big error they'd be blowing up like crazy.

If I am merely describing it wrong or have miss-understood the Americans then so be it, like you not got time to waste. I am merely seeing what the software reports in the datalog from the knock sensor as it can go both to negative and positive values. Time to go and fire the V8 up! :)
 
Gorgeous car i did think of ordering myself but bottled it as the type of driving i would do in traffic would give me about 10 MPG lol.
Have you tried the stereo yet ?
I remember when i got a Cougar V6 i only listened to the engine for the first 2 weeks :D
 
Gorgeous car i did think of ordering myself but bottled it as the type of driving i would do in traffic would give me about 10 MPG lol.
Have you tried the stereo yet ?
I remember when i got a Cougar V6 i only listened to the engine for the first 2 weeks :D


Guessing stereo is a trick question? :D

The V8 sounds glorious in the car, deep American rumble/burble and low revs and light throttle but at full throttle it turns into a snarling beast.

But yes I do listen to the radio from time to time, traffic, motorways and I find the sound system pretty good, it is certainly an improvement over the Bose that was in the 911.
 
Having been made to get rid of my VXR8 and having an S6 V10 as a compromise car (stupid idea), I finally caved and got the missus the Sorento she wanted.

As payback, I've just put down my deposit on a Lightning Blue Mustang... expected Feb delivery date, although he said more likely March... but, the dealer did say that they are in the process of switching over from Deep Impact Blue to Lightning Blue now, so some people expecting DIB may actually end up getting LB and not want to take delivery, at which point I could step in.

Would give me a bit of a quandary as taking delivery in April would mean £140 road tax every year after.

Already have a quote on the Ford/Roush 670 Supercharger and the guy that lives opposite me runs the local Ford Motorsport workshop reckons it'll be less than a day to setup :D

On the demo model they had the front plate straight on the bumper - no big plastic holder
 
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