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One isn't a patternzain said:
New and shocking footage of British troops torturing Iraqis...
- Thread starter Richdog
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Man of Honour
Mik3 said:
They serve no purpose that we know of, no.
I have to say that if the beating of an Iraqi or indeed anyone gets information that helps the situation such as finding an arms cache, an Al Qaeda nest or anything that helps the situation and saves Allied lives and indeed those of non militant Iraqis', then so be it.
They are not British bobbies peddling around on bicycles. They are British troops, heavily armed and they face the threat of death daily.
Do not confuse soldiering and policing ..... they are not comparable in any way.
Associate
The title of this thread is exceptionally misleading. Firstly, the Iraqi's were getting beaten up, and in no way does that constitute torture, in my view. Secondly, because they were being beaten up as opposed to tortured, it's not that particularly "shocking".
Man of Honour
Sleepy said:
Well share your wisdom sleepy .......
Soldato
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We dont know the background of the tape. Wars aren't fought with marshmellows - who knows why these men were being beaten, would it change the opinion of those who are condmenning this tape so one-dimensionally if they were thieves or pimps?
Other than that - cant comment on it really, although the humble narrator does sound psychotic.
Other than that - cant comment on it really, although the humble narrator does sound psychotic.
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NO, you're not the only one that thinks that.zain said:Before clicking this I knew some people would say "they deserved it" and ironically its the people with the danish banners...*sensing patterns*
How many Israeli troops are there in either Iraq or Israel?zain said:
Are you saying that rape, etc, is commonplace, or an occasional incident?
If the latter, then I certainly wouldn't be surprised. If you're saying it's commonplace, or in any way officially sanctioned, then I not only would be surprised, but I would want evidence before I believe it. I certainly don't just accept that on the basis of rumour or allegation, any more than I accept that anyone else is gulity of anything on that basis.
No, it isn't right to torture criminals, here or in Iraq, whether they "deserved it" or not.zain said:
Assuming those lads getting the beating were causing trouble, lobbing stones, etc, they should either have been arrested and subjected to due process of law, or they should have been released. There is NO JUSTIFICATION for troops deciding to take the law into their own hands. None whatsoever. And when they do so, they make a mockery of our claims for democracy and justice, and they shame both the rest of the Armed Forces and this country as a whole.
That video footage, if genuine and if it portrays what it appears to, is shocking and disgusting. I certainly don't want to believe it's genuine, and I'll wait for an inquiriy before making my mind up, but I have to say, it certainly looks genuine and if I had to put money on it, I'd say it will prove to be so.
And the most shocking thing about it is not the beating, but that someone was filming it and whooping with pleasure, and that other troops were walking past as if nothing were happening.
If, as the government would have us believe, this was an isloated incident, I find it very hard to accept that other troops would just wander nonchalantly past as if it was an everyday occurance. I'm forced, reluctantly, to conclude that it probably is, if not an everyday occurance then at least far from rare. Apart from anything else, this is not the first time totally unacceptable behaviour has been caught on film, and then ended up in the public domain. What's the inference? That such incidents are rare, but that every time one happens, it coincidentally happens to get filmed, and the film accidentally ends up getting released? That assertion, frankly, is an insult to the intelligence. If film of this type of thing gets out, and does so more than once then I'm sorry but I don't accept it's an isolated incident.
And if that type of behaviour is commonplace, then to me it says two things. Firstly, our armed forces have a serious issue on their hands and it needs to be dealt with, and firmly. Secondly, it totally undermines any case we have for keeping troops in Iraq. Pull them out and give the country back to the Iraqi's, or let the UN keep the peace. If we can't do better than that, we certainly have no moral right to be there, preaching peace, tolerance and democracy. What message are we sending? Don't do what we do, do what we tell you?
If that footage proves to be genuine, then zain is right. It's arrant hypocrisy to be there preaching law and order, while that is going on. Those soldiers ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves .... and if found guilty, punished.
Soldato
Old Turkey said:
Quite right really, torture is a pre-meditated motion, this was a beatin, we see football riots get worse treatment than that.
KaHn
Von Smallhausen said:
I find that a bit patronising, I know that nasty things happen in war... as most people here undoubtedly do. I don't however, think that filming the beating of iraqis at a time when every eye in the international community is upon us is even close to acceptable no matter the circumstances. Videos like this completely undermine the entire effort and add fuel to the people who oppose us.
Damn right I think that this shouldn't happen in a place like that at a time like this. Every soldier there should know the pressure the UK is under over this war effort, the people in that video do themselves and our country dishonour. It was a cowardly thing to do for an army that ranks amongst the most reputable and professional in the world. Just my opinion.
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You've seen the reports regarding the effect the Al Gharib scandal had on the levels of violence US ground forces were exposed to pre and post scandel?Von Smallhausen said:
We're lucky that so far Iraqi news is covering it up but 3 other Arab wide news services are covering it.
Soldato
Mik3 said:Great! replace one barbaric regime with another, that will sort all the problems out.
I haven't seen the videos but they sound disgusting.
I'm sorry but this is war their fighting, If a group of people start throwing grenades at you I think its lucky they was'nt shot dead
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Your defence of British troops beating up random strangers is staggering. There is a right way of extracing infomation and a wrong way. This is both morally indefensible as well as politically stupid.Von Smallhausen said:
lowrider007 said:I;m sorry but this is war thier fighting, If a group of people start throwing grenades at you I think its lucky they was,nt shot dead
As I said I haven't seen the video but apparently the people getting a beating are unarmed and in custody, they are not a threat.
Soldato
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Sleepy said:
I'm curious how you know they are random strangers. We dont know anything about these people - while beatings such as this are not a nice thing to see or use, there is no guaruntee that there was not a reason and that the beatings were not effected. These three may have been the ringleaders of a gang who were feeding vital information to insurgents - or again they may just have been random nobodies. No way to tell really.
Soldato
Oh if both sides could fight by a common set of rules and make sure this is settled like Gentlemen then all the better
The fact is out there our boys are out there defending their own asses from some would be suicide bomber and we are confusing giving some Iraqi getting a beating with Suicide and Torture. Do me a favour. No one knows the intelligence troops had an hour before this event nor their motive for doing such an action.
Why report on this now, some five months after the event ? Other than to take it completely out of context and to sell newspapers perhaps ??????. Even in the 1920's News from one side of the globe took a little less than five months to get here. Propoganda and sensationalism at its very worst.
Regardless of the justification for the war the fact still remains our boys are still there and they need our support. God knows we may actually need it the way things are going in this country.
The fact is out there our boys are out there defending their own asses from some would be suicide bomber and we are confusing giving some Iraqi getting a beating with Suicide and Torture. Do me a favour. No one knows the intelligence troops had an hour before this event nor their motive for doing such an action.
Why report on this now, some five months after the event ? Other than to take it completely out of context and to sell newspapers perhaps ??????. Even in the 1920's News from one side of the globe took a little less than five months to get here. Propoganda and sensationalism at its very worst.
Regardless of the justification for the war the fact still remains our boys are still there and they need our support. God knows we may actually need it the way things are going in this country.
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Even if they were ringleaders or whatever, what purpose does beating them senseless serve.
I can't believe anybody living in a so called civilised country would even consider making excuses for these actions. Take a good look at yourselves.
I can't believe anybody living in a so called civilised country would even consider making excuses for these actions. Take a good look at yourselves.
Man of Honour
Richdog said:
Well that is not my intention Richdog, far from it and if that is how you perceived it then I apologise
, although I stand by what I said. Sleepy said:
Whether it is filmed and aired or not, militants will continue to come into Iraq and be recruited in Iraq. they need no excuse to target Allied troops, mainly the United States.
dirtydog said:Why do you defend the indefensible
I merely accept hopw the world turns dd, sad as it may be.
Sleepy said:
I have morals Sleepy, in more ways than you may think, but my mind is set in stone on this subject. The reasons we are over there are one thing and another argument. The fact is we are there and I back them.
I didn't hear nearly as much furore when several British troops were captured by Iranian forces a while back and were paraded blindfolded on unbiased Arabic TV.
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