New and shocking footage of British troops torturing Iraqis...

xyphic · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:33

Nemesis said:
more like a few slaps to a few young stone throwers, but ok let them off and tomorrow it will be fire bombs or worse.

I wouldn't call being headbutted by a bloke in full riot gear (including requisite helmet), being thrashed to the ground by batons and then kicked in the groin "a few slaps"!

At this point we don't know what happened afterwards -- though I suspect a few youths being returned after a beating wouldn't have calmed the situation down much.

JimmyEatWorms · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:34

i know nothing said:
The News of the World were the ones who got the tape (no prizes for guessing why), why couldn't they just hand it over to the Army?
Why did they have to put soldiers lives at risk for a two year old tape?

And you don't think the soldiers themselves are puting lives at risk by carrying out the beatings in the first place? Slightly warped logic you have there.

AJUK · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:37

Rioters are often given a beating in this country, remember the poll tax riots. The difference is nowadays is some slimy human rights lawyers stirs things up and easrns a big fat fee from blowing an occupational hazard of rioting into a national crisis.

Throwing stones one day, roadside bombs the next.

JimmyEatWorms · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:40

AJUK said:
Rioters are often given a beating in this country, remember the poll tax riots. The difference is nowadays is some slimy human rights lawyers stirs things up and easrns a big fat fee from blowing an occupational hazard of rioting into a national crisis.

Throwing stones one day, roadside bombs the next.

I have never once in this country seen evidence of any rioters been taken aside by police or soldiers to a secluded area and beaten senseless while outnumbered about 3 to 1.

Nemesis · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:42

xyphic said:
I wouldn't call being headbutted by a bloke in full riot gear (including requisite helmet), being thrashed to the ground by batons and then kicked in the groin "a few slaps"!

At this point we don't know what happened afterwards -- though I suspect a few youths being returned after a beating wouldn't have calmed the situation down much.

I don't see it as a news story or something that is bad, more so stay home don't throw stones and you wont risk getting a few slaps, or even if Saddam was still around expect to have explosives tied around your neck and have torso blown off.

How lucky these people are now to have the right to even become a mob, and live to tell the tale.

i know nothing · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:42

JimmyEatWorms said:
And you don't think the soldiers themselves are puting lives at risk by carrying out the beatings in the first place? Slightly warped logic you have there.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Or would you like to see bloodshed as a result of this?

Dingo · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:46

JimmyEatWorms said:
And you don't think the soldiers themselves are puting lives at risk by carrying out the beatings in the first place? Slightly warped logic you have there.

On the contrary, discipline is respected worldwide,, and if we had a tad more in this country it would be a good thing.

Look what has happened to our schooling system since the "Liberals" took over.....no slipper, no cane, no control....pupils abusing\assaulting teachers who then leave school with little regard for any of the Laws of the country...and why?....because we are being "better" than them with a moral superiority that holds no sway.

You should remember that we always have to factor in the lowest common denominator, kids, like adults, will always push the limits until they are made aware of the boundaries..... no punishment=no boundary=anarchy!!

Sleepy · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:46

cleanbluesky said:
I'm curious how you know they are random strangers.

You misinterpreted my comment. It was in reference to Von Smallhausens post: "I really do back our troops 100% out there ... Are people naive enough to think that beatings do not go on in such warzones ?" Which can only be read as support of random beatings.

BTW did this look like a controlled interrigation under the command of an NCO/officer or did it look like some hacked off troops kicking the **** out of some blokes picked up off the street.

JimmyEatWorms · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:47

Two wrongs don't make a right. Or would you like to see bloodshed as a result of this?

Of course I wouldn't but if the soldiers were not behaving like scum in the first place then the media would have nothing to report. Resposibility lies with the soldiers and their commanding officers...not the media for doing axactly what they are supposed to do.

loopstah · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:48

Was that it?

From reading the paper it sounded a lot worse than the video. You get worse than that on a friday night.

It wasn't just stones they were throwing but homemade grenades as well.

thebrasso · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:48

What I'm about to say will probably come out the wrong way and I'll be interpreted as a racist...but here goes.

People in Iraq, having lived under a dictator for over twenty years, don't understand democracy and civil liberties. Trying to reasonably explain to people what is right and wrong often won't be taken onboard in that part of the world. Therefore violence and sometimes the use of force can become necessary.

However I'd like to clarify that we don't know the story behind the clip being debated. If the beatings were administered because they were throwing stones or stealing or whatever then it becomes justified. Soldiers are trained to do what is necessary. Furthermore all of us comment on the moral dilemmas posed by using force from a position of safety. If they thought what they did would be effective (as opposed to shooting them, say) then I say fair enough.

Oh, and just for all you bleeding heart liberals who have never done any sort of military training, British soldiers are actually trained to use a lot of force to get the job done. If necessary.

The MOD will investigate this, and if it comes out that the beatings were for no reason or could not be justified in any way then they will probably be charged.

FincH · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:51

JimmyEatWorms said:
Of course I wouldn't but if the soldiers were not behaving like scum in the first place then the media would have nothing to report. Resposibility lies with the soldiers and their commanding officers...not the media for doing axactly what they are supposed to do.

Scum?

They duffed up 3/4 Iraqi teenagers who, with a mob of many others were attacking the soldiers.

Nana · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:52

I cant believe anyone thinks that this kind of behaviour by any armed force is acceptable.

But there we go. The good(ish) news is that the MoD take this sort of thing FAR more seriously than americans do, and it is highly likely these men will get punished for what they have done, if it transpires that evidence exists of wrongdoing. Although the cynic in me says they are being punished for being caught, not for committing the offence.

There was a great little cartoon in private eye a few weeks ago, a picture of 2 squaddies beating the hell out of an iraqi, with the line "do you believe in democracy yet then?"

They lived in fear under saddam, and were tortured, but at least they could buy food, had electricity and so on... now the country is a hell hole and they still live in fear of beatings and being tortured.

AJUK · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:55

JimmyEatWorms said:
I have never once in this country seen evidence of any rioters been taken aside by police or soldiers to a secluded area and beaten senseless while outnumbered about 3 to 1.

Do some research about the poll tax riots, the miners strike or even the hunting bill protests, you will find many examples of order being restored by police summary justice.You will also see many examples of rioters using extreme violence when unecessary.

Poll tax riots

[OZ] · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:55

Just watched the video, they got what they deserved. If you play with fire you are gonna get burned.

i know nothing · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:56

JimmyEatWorms said:
SNIP...not the media for doing axactly what they are supposed to do.

Showing a 2 year old tape? Putting more peoples lives at risk? Sorry, I can't agree with that.

loopstah · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:56

Nana said:
now the country is a hell hole and they still live in fear of beatings and being tortured.

You missed out "and being blown to peices by their Muslim brothers."

JimmyEatWorms · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:57

AJUK said:
Do some research about the poll tax riots, the miners strike or even the hunting bill protests, you will find many examples of order being restored by police summary justice.You will also see many examples of rioters using extreme violence when unecessary.

Poll tax riots

I repeat:

I have never once in this country seen evidence of any rioters been taken aside by police or soldiers to a secluded area and beaten senseless while outnumbered about 3 to 1.

Violence was used to restore order in the poll tax and miner strike riots. We did not see individuals being dragged away down a back alley and beaten when they were puting up no resistence.

Slam62 · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:59

Our soldiers shouldnt even be there, its a foreign country that did not threaten us in anyway, the Iraqis would have sorted out Sadam in the end, there were no wmds and no chemicals and now our soldiers have become a target for the locals.
The soldiers doing a bit of stress relieving is fine, i bet the locals were'nt eactly inocent, but what i find appalling is the polititions taking the holier than thou stance when they ordered the soldiers to hit the country with everything they could.

Dont get me wrong, Sadam is an evil man etc but its not our fight, obviously in this day and age its difficult for the public to accept 'Iraq wont give us any oil so we're going to go over to their place and duff them in', of course our gang, sorry professional soldiers are going to behave like gentlemen all the time and pat little iraqi on the head and say dont do it again. Us brits believe anything if it makes us feal more self righteous.

Ooo look at that nasty soldier kicking that nice iraqi how shocking, did you know quite a few nice iraqis got blown to bits in the war and a lot of others were maimed for life.

Good old james bond didnt do too well identifying the threat either, what do they all do at that nice new gchq building then and with those billions of taxes they spend.

They new for certain all along there were no wmds etc so why are we in iraq if not to nick he oil. Bring the soldiers home and let them beat each other up at an army camp.

AJUK · 12 Feb 2006 at 21:59

JimmyEatWorms said:
I repeat:

I have never once in this country seen evidence of any rioters been taken aside by police or soldiers to a secluded area and beaten senseless while outnumbered about 3 to 1.

Violence was used to restore order in the poll tax and miner strike riots. We did not see individuals being dragged away down a back alley and beaten when they were puting up no resistence.

Your naivety is stunning.