New Canon full frame?

An Exception · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:28

Ksanti said:
D600 is rumoured to be that sort of size though I'm not convinced that's a good thing

For me it's a good thing, I like to use grips as they help me achieve a slower shutter speed. D700 with grip is too big/heavy.

An Exception · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:32

Ksanti said:
D600 is rumoured to be that sort of size though I'm not convinced that's a good thing - it's not a matter of sensor size it's target market that means the D3200 is smaller than the D800 - the mount is the same size regardless.

D800 pixel density is very similar to crop DSLRs and pixels per feather means nothing unless you're cropping incredibly heavily, but at that point lens sharpness is very unlikely to be holding up at all well.

Tbh, if you had looked at the Nex 7 vs M9 comparison, you would have seen just how good the 100% crops are without the AA filter muddying the waters.

I can see the point in crop camera's, at least until FF pixel densities match APSC.

Raymond Lin · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:37

An Exception said:
Has Canon done any upgrades with the sensor yet, or is it still the same actual sensor churned out again?

The Mkii ?

An Exception · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:41

Sorry, the 650D?

jonneymendoza · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:41

D.P. said:
The dates are irrelevant, the fact is the D7k is a crop camera that offered better AF than the 5DMKII and both were on sale new during the same time period. The same is true for the Canon 7D and the Nikon D300, the D300 was released before the Canon 5DMKII AFAIK and is a great example of a crop body that has many advantages (and of course many disadvantages) over a FF body of the same time period. My point is simply that just because a camera has a FF sensor does not mean it is better for everyone by virtue of its sensor alone.

This is not a dig at Canon in anyway, it has nothing to do with any brand.

Dates do make a difference. teh fatc that 5d2 used same senor as 5dc should be a huge clue on your statement mate. Like i said, compare like for like!

And also, yes f2.8 on a lesn acts as a f4 on ff but a f2.8 lens on a ff acts as wlel f2.8 and to get f2.8 ff on a crop, u need to shoot with a prime like a f1.8 lens. This is why i perosnaly rate ff more then crops because the dof/bokeh or whatever u call it is 1 stop better on the ff.

Not to mention i can use lenses as intended ie a 50mm is a 50mm not some 80+mm lens on a crop that is to short for a tele and too long for a general walkaround lens.

An Exception said:
Has Canon done any upgrades with the sensor yet, or is it still the same actual sensor churned out again?

5d3 and 650d uses new sensors

jonneymendoza · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:42

An Exception said:
Sorry, the 650D?

yes 650d uses new sensor. meant to be better then the 7d sensor actually and carries same af system as the 60d. its quite a beast of a camera. touch screen AF on video mode that not even the 5d3 has

An Exception · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:45

Ok, I'll wait for DXO, it will be interesting to see how much that 18mp sensor has been improved...

D.P. · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:57

jonneymendoza said:
Dates do make a difference. teh fatc that 5d2 used same senor as 5dc should be a huge clue on your statement mate. Like i said, compare like for like!

And also, yes f2.8 on a lesn acts as a f4 on ff but a f2.8 lens on a ff acts as wlel f2.8 and to get f2.8 ff on a crop, u need to shoot with a prime like a f1.8 lens. This is why i perosnaly rate ff more then crops because the dof/bokeh or whatever u call it is 1 stop better on the ff.

Not to mention i can use lenses as intended ie a 50mm is a 50mm not some 80+mm lens on a crop that is to short for a tele and too long for a general walkaround lens.

5d3 and 650d uses new sensors

I have pushed this thread way off topic so this is the last off topic reply I will make.

Having a FF sensor does not automatically mean the camera will have a better AF system. This was quite clear with the Canon 5DMK2 and the 7D, the 7D was a much better camera for sports and wildlife photographers. There is no point of contention there. To say a FF camera is automatically better for everyone is just plain wrong, accept this and move on.
Yes, for you personally you may prefer or need a FF camera, some people neither want nor need that. And the way you are describing your preference for FF I would question whether you really need a FF body- don't buy into the marketing and internet hype. See what you can do with a prime lens and good composition with a modern crop camera. I would be astounded if you somehow hit a genuine limitation of a crop camera that massively limited your potential. Even if you are a Bokeh whore you can get much nicer results from appropriate lenses on a crop camera than the canon nifty fifty on FF camera even although it is impossible to achieve the same DoF.

An Exception · 17 Jul 2012 at 23:58

jonneymendoza said:
Sorry but the 5d3 has probably the best AF system to date that is widely regarded as better then the d800 mate.

I think it's probably close, but from a review I read, the D4's AF was marked higher than the 1dX (from the same website, but not the same reviewer). If it's true and the D4 AF is >1DX AF, it means the D800's AF outperforms the 5Diii.

However saying that, the D800 does have issues with the left focus points, and need a hardware + software fix, so the D800's AF is hardly ideal.

An Exception · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:04

jonneymendoza said:
And also, yes f2.8 on a lesn acts as a f4 on ff but a f2.8 lens on a ff acts as wlel f2.8 and to get f2.8 ff on a crop, u need to shoot with a prime like a f1.8 lens. This is why i perosnaly rate ff more then crops because the dof/bokeh or whatever u call it is 1 stop better on the ff.

1.3 stops for Canon users. If it was 1 stop, you would need an F2 lens to match 2.8 on FF.

jonneymendoza · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:07

D.P. said:
I have pushed this thread way off topic so this is the last off topic reply I will make.

Having a FF sensor does not automatically mean the camera will have a better AF system. This was quite clear with the Canon 5DMK2 and the 7D, the 7D was a much better camera for sports and wildlife photographers. There is no point of contention there. To say a FF camera is automatically better for everyone is just plain wrong, accept this and move on.
Yes, for you personally you may prefer or need a FF camera, some people neither want nor need that. And the way you are describing your preference for FF I would question whether you really need a FF body- don't buy into the marketing and internet hype. See what you can do with a prime lens and good composition with a modern crop camera. I would be astounded if you somehow hit a genuine limitation of a crop camera that massively limited your potential. Even if you are a Bokeh whore you can get much nicer results from appropriate lenses on a crop camera than the canon nifty fifty on FF camera even although it is impossible to achieve the same DoF.

well for instance what other choices do i have in the canon crop that will offer a massive improvement over my 400d?

the 7d gets slated by many here and it gets bad results if your exposure is wrong. Not to mention the AA filter applied which is not good on it is another big factor.

i am NOT going to upgrade my rebel for umm another rebel. no way for a number of reasons

1. i hate the rebel size bodies, they are tiny. i had to buy a grip for mine to make it usabl

2. the control layouts are **** compared to a xx/xd bodies.

3. build quality is like a toy camera.

4. rebels dont offer much IQ performance, however mayeb teh 650d will finaly do(took what? 4-5 years to achieve noticable difference?)

So even if i was a crop fan. not many choices for canon users .

Also. where have i said FFmakes AF better? i said that the 5d3 offers a AF system thats better then d800 yet you continue to **** off canon as a whole.

And their's me thinking "An Exception" was the canon hater here

An Exception · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:11

jonneymendoza said:
And their's me thinking "An Exception" was the canon hater here

Technically, it was the 7D that turned my milk sour!

Although, I'm now glad I switched for other reasons...

Raymond Lin · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:19

Funnily enough i stayed with Canon not because of bodies, like i said, bodies come and go, lenses last "forever".

/me loves the 85/1.2

An Exception · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:26

^^^
I would as well, but I also like faster AF, consistent/dependable AF, and weather sealing. Tbh I can live without 0.3 stops, although it would be nice, but I would choose practicality over it.

Raymond Lin · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:39

Well, the 1Dx has all that...

and the 5D3 has most of that other stuff.

It's not a question of whether each brand has it, its if you can afford to upgrade to it. There get to a point if you can afford it that all this 7D heavy AA filter stuff is really don't apply to you. (just get a 1Dmk4 eh?

)

D.P. · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:43

jonneymendoza said:
well for instance what other choices do i have in the canon crop that will offer a massive improvement over my 400d?

the 7d gets slated by many here and it gets bad results if your exposure is wrong. Not to mention the AA filter applied which is not good on it is another big factor.

i am NOT going to upgrade my rebel for umm another rebel. no way for a number of reasons

1. i hate the rebel size bodies, they are tiny. i had to buy a grip for mine to make it usabl

2. the control layouts are **** compared to a xx/xd bodies.

3. build quality is like a toy camera.

4. rebels dont offer much IQ performance, however mayeb teh 650d will finaly do(took what? 4-5 years to achieve noticable difference?)

So even if i was a crop fan. not many choices for canon users .

Also. where have i said FFmakes AF better? i said that the 5d3 offers a AF system thats better then d800 yet you continue to **** off canon as a whole.

And their's me thinking "An Exception" was the canon hater here

I think you are mightily confused. I have not said a single think against Canon here, I have merely used the Canon 5DMK2 as example. Everything I have said equally applies to Nikon, Sony or whoever.

You were the one going on about how crop camera should di, I am merely arguing that they should not and will not and that FF sensors is not a holy grail to becoming a good photographer.

maybe Canon crop cameras are all terrible and your only choice is to go FF. That doesn't matter to my argument that crop cameras are both useful, desirable and will definitely be around for a long time.

Raymond Lin · 18 Jul 2012 at 00:49

D.P. said:
maybe Canon crop cameras are all terrible and your only choice is to go FF. That doesn't matter to my argument that crop cameras are both useful, desirable and will definitely be around for a long time.

That's true.

It's cheaper to make. Thus higher sales, thus more profit.

They have invested lots of money into the R&D into it, plenty of lenses now on the market for it.

The user base is massive and the demand is big, it is not going anywhere.

D.P. · 18 Jul 2012 at 01:25

Raymond Lin said:
That's true.

It's cheaper to make. Thus higher sales, thus more profit.

They have invested lots of money into the R&D into it, plenty of lenses now on the market for it.

The user base is massive and the demand is big, it is not going anywhere.

That is is all I ever wanted to say in this thread, in response to jonneymendoza who said he wanted crop bodies to die. Crop bodies wont go anywhere for a whole host of reasons and for many people are a good choice.

sbi5ar · 18 Jul 2012 at 09:35

D.P. said:
That is is all I ever wanted to say in this thread, in response to jonneymendoza who said he wanted crop bodies to die. Crop bodies wont go anywhere for a whole host of reasons and for many people are a good choice.

I'd agree with this...

Linking it to what raymond said, most of the research costs will have already been paid for as the crop camera is a "re-hash" of their older flagship models. Hope that makes sense!

jonneymendoza · 18 Jul 2012 at 09:40

D.P. said:
I think you are mightily confused. I have not said a single think against Canon here, I have merely used the Canon 5DMK2 as example. Everything I have said equally applies to Nikon, Sony or whoever.

You were the one going on about how crop camera should di, I am merely arguing that they should not and will not and that FF sensors is not a holy grail to becoming a good photographer.

maybe Canon crop cameras are all terrible and your only choice is to go FF. That doesn't matter to my argument that crop cameras are both useful, desirable and will definitely be around for a long time.

Yes i know crops should not die and i was actually being sarcastic like when you said ff should die. However, i was serious about how IMO ff IS beter the crop in lots of ways mate. That wont change my views.

FF is not some myth or legend. its real. it is a great sensor and technically better then a crop sensor. There is a reason why FF are larger and more expensive to make then crops.

D.P. said:
That is is all I ever wanted to say in this thread, in response to jonneymendoza who said he wanted crop bodies to die. Crop bodies wont go anywhere for a whole host of reasons and for many people are a good choice.

You also wanted ff to die..